Church & State - Dr Norman of The Libertarian Christian Institute

Spokane Valley could become a sanctuary city. A different Houseman Caleb Collier says that this I'm. Proposing that the City of Spokane Valley issue of proclamation stating that our city is a second Amendae sanctuary. Welcome to the. Fire today on Church and State, the Libertarian Christian Institute with doctor Norman Horn. Hello Christian patriots, and welcome to Church and State, where we drive morality and religion over tolerance and apathy. And I'm your host, Caleb Callier, once again, your favorite far right shock jock and the show that talks about politics and religion. Jesus Christ is our referee, so it's always nice and clean. Now, I'm gonna point you to Church and State dot media so you can do a few things here. Number one, I want you to fill out that registration form, that annoying pop up that comes as soon as you hit the page. I want you to diet our newsletter. And I also want you to get a personal phone call from me. 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We're part of so many different great platforms and RBTV, Prepper Broadcasting Network, newscasters and all the social media's all that stuff, And obviously it takes money to do what we're doing. And so if you like the conversations that we have the pursuit of truth, defending liberty, police, donate to us. Even something as small as ten dollars a month can help us out immensely. Lastly, if you want to get Ahold of US Church and State seventeen seventy six at Proton dot me. And with that, let's go ahead and bring on our guest. I am really excited about this one. As you know, I refer to myself as a Biblitarian. I'm a Christian libertarian. I've been saying it for a long time. And as I started searching for fellow believers right, people who think like I do, I came across the Libertarian Christian Institute. And so I'm bringing on doctor Norman Horn, who holds a PhD in chemical engineering from the University of Texas at Austin and a MA and theological studies at Lipscom University. I did postdoctoral researched MIT and It, has been part of multiple startup companies and currently works in the medical device industry. He's won numerous awards for his writing and research in both engineering and theology. He's also the founder and president of the Libertarian Christian Institute, the premier organization exploring libertarian theory from a Christian point of view. Doctor Horn, thanks for joining us. Hey, thanks Caleb. It's great to be here. It's always fun to talk to you, and I'm excited to get this going. Yeah, as am I. As I said in the beginning here, it's it's so wonderful to meet fellow Christian libertarians because we're kind of a different breed. You know, a lot of people when they view or think of libertarians, they're like, oh, you know, they're just kind of conservative on some things, but they just want to smoke pot all the time. Yeah, they're kind of a weird mix. They just want to open borders and all this stuff. But there is a Christian element to this. Certainly when you look at the Liberty Libertarian Party as a whole, it's an odd mix of people. But we're on the Christian side of things, so we always have that Christian morality when we're discussing freedom. Yeah. I mean, we've been in this for a while, or I should say at least I've been in this for a while. Discovering libertarianism for me happened, you know, long before even Libertarian Christians dot Com got started. But as I grew in my knowledge of both theology and libertarian theory, it became evident to me that it was necessary to make a both first, a website where I could start putting these thoughts more to paper or to the electrons in the cloud, if you will, but then also developing more of an organization around trying to promote these ideas more comprehensively in a way that perhaps isn't was not existent in the liberty movement. There's always been Christians in the libertarian movement, even back in the well in the last ten to twenty years. If you were looking at say, the demographics of even the Libertarian Party. Now to be clear, LCI is not part of the Libertarian Party, were five oh one c three nonprofit, but the LP still consisted on average of about fifty percent Christians. That's non trivial, and I would say that's probably across the board through the libertarian movement, regardless of whether you're in the LP or not, because you don't have to be in the LP to be a libertarian. That's that's for sure. You know, some of us are and some of us aren't. Great, okay, But regardless that, the population of Christians in there has always been rather large. However, I think that the problem has historically been that Christians have not felt like they had a really great way of bringing those two ideas together in a way that really made sense to the people that they talked to. So it wasn't the fact that they didn't have an answer, but they weren't the loudest voices in the room. Usually that's the randiance, quite honestly, and that's okay. You know, we love them too, you know, and then hope come to faith guys that you guys, there's there's more to life than objectivism. But still there's good things about Iron Randy even so, and like I get it, but you know, that's where that's where el CI has tried to come in and fill a gap that there's always been Christians in the libertary movement, but we need an intellectual kind of edifice to build upon. And so what we try to do at el CI is produce the best content that we can to teach Christians about a free society and the principles of libertarianism overall. So that's what we're doing. That's what we're here to do. We do that in all sorts of different ways. We can talk about that, but there's just there's so much that the church needs to hear because frankly, the theology circles you get a whole swath of different things, not all of it good, you know, and there could be people who are great in lots of different theology venues, but they just don't understand economics well enough to really see that the state is the enemy of God, and that's what we're here to proclaim. Well, I absolutely love that. I'd like to, you know, start off the conversation and we're going to get into a lot of what you were just talking about. But you were talking about kind of the nuances of libertarianism, because yeah, there is some some very left leaning libertarians. There's some great leaning libertarians, and then you know, we like we like to come up with terms. Like I told you before when we first talked that I'm a menarchist, you know, you were like, well, we're gonna change that. But you have like the classical liberal as well, which is not at all what the liberals of the modern age are, more of the Thomas Jefferson vain of classical liberalism. And then you have like the anarcho capitalists, and you even have the anarcho communists, which I don't really understand. Perhaps you could explain that one to me. It doesn't seem to make sense. Yeah, okay, it doesn't seem to make sense to me. But can you talk a little bit about the nuances of libertarianism and how honestly we really are accepting of different variations of libertarianism. Yeah, so there are different ways in which people have tried to push this forward, but at its core, libertarianism is really just adherence to the non aggression principle and working that out in the political arena. It doesn't necessarily make a claim upon all other elements of life, as we'd like to say. And I've argued this for years, like libertarianism is not a comprehensive worldview. You need the fullness of Christianity in order to understand real life, you know, and its fullness, and libertarianism doesn't bring you to God. Libertarianism cannot save you, but it can tell you how to properly think about justice in society because it's based on natural law, the things that we can observe from the world and that God has through what whether you want to call that common grace or just evident reason, however you want to put that, these are things that we can understand through observation and reason in the world as such, they are what like they are universally applicable, and we can bring that to bear in our analysis of power structures that exist today. And what this tells us, and not only through our evident reason, but through the observation of the scriptures as well, is that the state is the enemy of God, that power structures that claim that to have a monopoly on violence, that aggression for them is okay. Aggression for me, not for thee is is is prohibited. That is that so there's nothing different between the state and a criminal gang of robbers. Uh. And that's you know, and that can even be traced back to like look, even Augustine said similar sorts of things when he was writing The City of God for that matter. And and I do think that this is you know, very defensible through scripture as well. So that's you know, from a from a just a sheer you know, evident reason basis. Libertarianism is simply the application of the non aggression principle. And where you take that is, you know, kind of what leads us into different variations of libertarianism, ranging from kind of the left leaning guys to to the you know, more right leaning to I would just you know, we try to stick to kind of a plumb line libertarianism as it pertains to libertarian theory, but then as it pertains to our cultural values and things that we care about. It in that regard, well, we're Christians, like that's what we are, and so we're gonna adhere to the to you know, to being Jesus people in this regard. So that means that you know, we're so journals and strangers in this world, and that we look different, that we take captive every thought, that we're being transformed by the renewing of our minds, that we're putting on the armor of God, all those good things that we have. You know, I mean it's Sunday school answers, but you know what, Sunday school answers are pretty darn good these days in in a in a world that is that is getting you know, more violent by the hour. It feels like, uh when where you know, degradation of morals is happening on a daily basis. So this is a this is how we stand up to to the cultural creep around us. Uh, we we have we hold fast the scripture. We tell we tell people to turn back to their churches. You know, there's gonna be people in your churches that you're going to disagree with with regards to politics, But that does not matter. You need to be there, You need to be interacting with your fellow Christians. And this is when I guess start getting in a preaching mode. I'm sorry, but you know that's sort of natural when you get into this sort of stuff. Eventually, that's what we're all about. Yeah, no, no, it's a great answer. Let me ask you this because a lot of Christians that I've had conversations with where they find out I'm a libertarian, they're like, wait, wait, that doesn't make sense. You can't be a libertarian and a Christian. And one of the verses that they love to point to, and it's not just them, it's really truly every deathspot who is attempting to use Christianity to silence Christians. They always want to point to Romans thirteen, right, ye, and Romans thirteen. And I know you've done a lot of research, a lot of writing about how does a Christian libertarian navigate Romans thirteen? Please, the floor is yours. Oh boy, where do I begin? Well, I think the one of my central theses in my theological analysis of the state through the Bible is that when you start with Romans thirteen, you end up making pretty critical rau And so I don't even like really wish to address it from the perspective of like, well, let's just look at this passage of scripture and that's it, because I think that leads you into a some nondescript errors that I just like, it's it's a problem. Instead, I think we need to look at the whole context of scripture and then come back kind of toward the end of it and see where Romans thirteen kind of fits into it. Because when you look at at the like the big old passages, like the really significant ones that help us to understand what is the relationship of the person of God to the state apparatus or to the power apparatus around us, I think you get a different picture. So first off, let we turn to Jesus and we look at the temptations of Jesus and one of the principal ones that was the where Satan brings him up to the high place, shows him the kingdoms of the world. Now, okay, yeah, there's some probably some a bit whether you want to call that hyperbole or I don't know whatever it shows all the kingdoms of the world. Okay, fine, whatever that looks like, that is what happened, right, all right? We know that that that this is a real temptation to Jesus. Why is it because Satan said I can deliver this to you if you will bow down and worship me. Now, yeah, Satan is the father of lies. But if that is, there's also a half truth in there when you think about it, right that and that bit is that Satan really could do that. And if that is the case, what does that tell us about the nature of power? What the nature of the power structures around us? The Roman Empire? All of those things seem to indicate that, oh, it actually is the case that even though God has you know, is sovereign over all, that there are these rogue entities that are not outside of God's plan in the sense in the grand scheme of things, but that are certainly not acting as a as a vehicle of His goodness, of his that is justified in their actions. And uh. And because what Jesus say in response to oh, I will give them to you if you will just bow down and worship me, he says, he tells, Saytan off, he says. He doesn't say, oh, no, no, I'm controlling those right now. No, he says, not a chance. Those are outside of my mission. They are not to belong to to my mission, not to my kingdom. So there's a complete difference between what are what is the kingdom of God and what are the kingdoms of men. So that is a central thesis to who we are as Christians, is that the kingdoms of men are not what we are part of. And you don't get to say, oh, well, ours is a democracy. Ours is the republic. That means it's okay, that is not how it works. Now we are we are indeed part of that. We can leverage our citizenship in the same way that Paul did in the book Backs, but we are not of this world like that. To be of this world is being part of those kingdoms. We don't operate there. And so that's like very central to who we are. But it goes beyond that, Like we can go back to the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is replete with examples of kingdoms that are going against God, ranging from straight up the Tower of Babel is the origin story. There. If one of the things that we should remember about Genesis is that it is a It is a book of origin stories, especially kind of Genesis one through eleven, telling us this is what this is the origin of all the things around us, the origin of why things exist, why evil is here. You're you're you are part of Genesis three and eating the apple and so on, like you are, you are part of that story. And the big lesson of the Tower of Babel is that this is the origin of power structures, namely that when people want to build a tower to heaven in order to invade it and make a name for themselves, that God says, no, we will have none of that. Uh and and and so it's again that is that's the origin. I call that the origin story of the state. And that's supported through you know, historical theology as well. When you think about it, there's certainly our references out there that it's not an original idea to me, that's thousands of years old. We just tended to forget this, and so that's really like that's important to remember. And uh and so as you as you kind of proceed through that, then you get to things like first Samuel, where when when when the Israelites ask for a king. Uh. And what does Samuel do. He gives them a lecture and says, all right, you want to look like the people around you, sure, but this is what's gonna happen. The king that you want because you're rejecting the true king who's God, because you want to look like the nations around you. This is what that king is gonna do. They're gonna tax you, they're gonna take your kids, They're gonna send them to war. He's gonna drive their chariots over you. Is going to take your land. The first fruits of all that I mean, like all of these things are are part of the state and that that we see now, and it's it's like, that's what that's what Samuel says is going to happen, and it's exactly it is exactly what happens. So that's I mean. And here's the thing, Like, if you want to look like the world around you, you want to make a name for yourself, you want to invade heaven and become God. Look like you're you're acting like the state. At that point, you were acting like government. But if you want to take in the promises of God and be faithful there's a promise for that. Just read what he says to Abraham, and I think it's a Genesis fourteen. When he takes he tells, you know that there's a little bit there and he says, I, you know, I will if if you're faithful. It's like I will make you a great nation, I will give you a name, and I will make you a blessing to all the earth. That promise is for Abraham, but in a sense it's also for us because we are to take Abraham as the example there he remained faithful and if we do that, then like God will make you successful there you don't need to participate in the in the power structures that are around us in order to be great great man. Theory is garbage in the eyes of God. And so like that's that's I think something that you know, we have to kind of come to grips with when in our analysis of the world around us. So then when we take that in and then we could think, okay, look at what happens through the rest of israel history, and then you finally get to where you know, okay, now Jesus comes, we have a completely different world around us. The Church is existent. And now we come to Romans thirteen. What are we to do with Romans thirteen? Now that we've learned all this about are the what is God's plan and project on the earth. It is not to establish a human kingdom with human leaders who believe that they are the great ones and should be replacing God. But rather it is individual communities and individuals and families who are working out God's project amongst them through simple things, you know, ranging from building families and procreation to economic activity, sciences and engineering and arts and beautiful you know, construction. I mean, the things that we're able to do have nothing to do with the ability of the state to operate. Uh it so as opposed to you know, what we often hear is like, well, war, wars make you great. Well, let's let's listen to Yoda. There war not make one great one. You know. That's a that's a you know, we should, we can, we can get there. But what is Romans thirteen have to say about that? Well, even in the context of Romans itself, Paul has been talking about the immense freedom that you receive by becoming by becoming a believer, by putting your faith and trust in Jesus, and as such you could get to the point where you might say, well, gee, I understand the function of this of the powers that be around me, but what are I should be able to just do whatever I want? And very like? And even that's answered even in Romans six or so, shall we do evil that good may result by no means? Let it not be said round that that is who we are. And so you know, when we get to Romans thirteen, though, then what does it say, Well, okay, that's where God reminds us that look all these things that are happening around you with state the guys, there's no authority that's that's there but from God. Like the only reason that they exist is that God allows it to and God will use it to punish evil. That is a that's a guarantee. And we see that, we see that repeatedly through the Old Testament too, and we didn't, we didn't, you know, allude to that specifically, but that is what happens as well. God uses a Syria the punish is, then use this Babylon to punish Assyria. Then use this grease to punish Babylon, and then use this Rome to punish Greece. I mean, like, this is what happens, what is explained in the Bible to us. So that's what the the you know, kind of the overarching point of even Romans thirteen is is that these are not outside of God's plan. So where are you to fit with that? Well, that's where we have to act, Like what does it mean to act like Christians in the face of that prudence? So you look at that and you go, all right, I am not I'm not here to cause the revolution off the bat, and maybe there is, maybe there's an appropriate place for that, but that's not our default. But rather we are to act as the Church. And what does that mean? Well, okay, that's explained through a whole lot of other scripture too. But and this is you know, I'm kind of talking through this that, you know, at a different, different pace and even a different kind of you know, tambore even than what I've written about at times. You know, I kind of get straight to the point in certain other they But what what I've come to like, it's different when you're writing and you're trying to, you know, do exegetical work on a specific set of scriptures and so on. But this is more of a preachy type of thing, I suppose. But you know, ideally, if you look at what we've written, and we try like we try to put you know, multiple interpretations in lci's work, so you can kind of see these are the ranges of things. But if you read specifically what I'm writing, I tend to default to Roman thirteen does tell you the way in which the Christians should act in the face of state action, which is to recognize that prudence is your is kind of your first virtue there that you don't necessarily need to go off and and uh and even be civilly disobedient for just for the thake of it, but rather look to, you know, being how do we be a light and a light to the earth assault in the earth, you know, in the in the face of in the face of state action. We don't want to be persecuted except for the name of Christ. So we try to live, live, live a quiet life, if you will, in the face of that, as Paul says elsewhere, I think that was Paul said that. But those are those are what our values are in that respect. So we teach, we live, we produce, and we and we you know, help and we just act faithfully. And if you do that, look, state action is going to be the least to your worries. No, you bring up some fantastic points there. And I mean, obviously when we when we look at the ancient israel people, they they wanted that king. Before that, they had a republic, Like it's really the first example we see of a republic or at least a representative government through through motives. Yeah, and it was working, it was working pretty well. And then they decided they wanted a king, and they, as I say on the show all the time, they chose Saul because it was tall, and that didn't work out very well. But but even even when we look at Genesis, when God first created this world, there was no government. It was him. He was with us in the garden of Eden, with our ancestors in the garden of Eden. And it wasn't until the world fell that we first see the development of government. When we look at governments, when we examine them, what are governments made up of? The governments are made up of people? And what does the Bible tell us about people? That we're desperately wicked. So it's a fair assumption to say that government is in fact evil, and we can look through history obviously and say, yeah, here's another example of government being evil. Oh wait, here's another example. Oh wait, there's legions of examples of government acting out in evil ways. Yep. Well, and I'm gonna definitely recommend both to you and to your listeners to read the work of David Liftcombe, the namesake of Lipscomb University, and his book on Civil Government, which incidentally a gentleman in the liberty movement named Ed Stringham and I have put together a reprint edition of that particular book, plus a lot more of Lipscomb's work historically. It's coming out at Vanderbilt University Press later this year. We're really excited about it. It's going to be awesome. And part of Lipscomb's main point I suggest in our introduction to that book that you'll love this because, like Lipscomb basically indicates in his introduction to his work that what he's doing is in contrast to people of his day. This was written around its first been in a book form in eighteen eighty nine, but the original essays were written twenty years before that, twenty five years before that, and he says in contrast to other ways in which people are going to try to analyze government, maybe from a sociological edge or an economic edge, or I'm going to do it from a biblical theological edge. Now he doesn't say that in those exact words, but that's the thrust of what he's doing, and that is and he starts with Genesis and the fact that men are wicked and that God, you know, uses God uses these things in order to punish wickedness and things like that, and that's where I derive a number of ideas as well. I think it's a highly unappreciated work or underappreciated work is perhaps better worded that we've even forgot about in my own my own theological tradition. Lipscomb comes from the Churches of Christ and the Stone Campbell Restoration movement, you know, and Lipscomb was a come It came out of Middle Tennessee and Nashville, namesake of Lipscomb University out there now. And I just I'm excited about the book because it's cool, but I'm more excited for the even just the ideas and getting them out there in a new and perhaps improved way with commentary and ways in which people can understand it better. It's kind of a bit more scholarly than some of the stuff that we do. It it's very well, it's long story behind that. It's like a tenure in the making work. But good stuff though, But it resonates really well with what you're saying, uh, and the way and you're you know, even you describe yourself. I've never heard the word before, but I like biblitariat is pretty great because the function of biblical theology and what we're trying to do at LCI and what we want people to appreciate through both our work and what they should be going back to the Bible, verifying, learning and just growing in that way is truly, it is truly appropriate and important for who we are. And like that's you know, in some sense, like we you know, I'm meta point for a second, Like right now people are searching for identity in a way that I think is just like it's it's both the world's oldest project, but it's also kind of newly weird in our current milieu. And guys like you can't neglect that the way that you can you should be forming who you are is through the words and the words of Jesus like take on that identity. Let him be your mentor him your model. When you take that on, it will change who you are and it will change the way you relate to the powers that be around us. And there's nothing more important than that. I would agree, and I hate to cut you off, but we're hitting that hard break. We're going to come back though, ladies and gentlemen, We're going to have another great conversation and we're going to address some of these issues that maybe Christians struggle with when it comes to libertarian principles. This is Caleb Collier with Church and State Dom Media. This is gentlemen. If you're not sleeping on my pillow, do you even patriots? I gotta tell you, this is the most wonderful stuff from a man who's given it all for your freedoms. Whether it be the pillow, the sheets, or the slippers. I absolutely adore my pillow. My pillow has the greatest products around. I know when I want to shuffle around in my bathrobe and slippers and yell at the neighbors. Of course I'm buying from my pillow. I need you to head on over to Church State Media. 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These guys I trust, and I'm serious, like why my brain is constantly like clicking and just I'm ready to ask the next question. It's because of this I started to notice as I was doing the show, and I've been doing the show for nearly a decade, that I was starting to forget words and struggle a little bit. Once I introduced this, it really did have a dramatic effect for me, and so I want you to try it. They got a lot of different products, their best three sixty five labs dot com, and make sure to use the promo code Church and State. And then yeah, have fun with all of the blue side effects. And we'll just leave it at that. Also, please once again, hit the donate button for us, keep us alive, keep us having conversations like this. They're important ones and you don't hear a lot of this type of content anywhere else, And so if you appreciate us, hit the donate button. All right, with that, let's go back to our guest. And I hate cutting people off, you know that about me, but I would echo what our guest was just saying, like, you have to have your identity in Christ first, that is first and foremost. Like you can have discussions with conservatives, with Republicans. You can say I'm a libertarian, I don't agree with this. I don't want to get in any more wars like, come on, can we stop attacking people like that? Seems like a very Christian principle. The only way you get there is if you have that faith, that belief in Jesus Christ. And so it's fundamental to what we're doing here for myself and for my guests. Now, I want to turn this conversation to some areas that Christians struggle with. And I already have the idea of exactly what I want to do, and it centers around drugs because a lot of Christians are going to struggle around this. And oh, by the way, as I was looking at your shirt side note here. As I was looking at your shirt and I love your shirt here, but you got the opposing Empire since eighty thirty three, Like I love that it's got the fish with the crown on it. You know, you know what might be a good symbol for Christian libertarians a lionfish. Ooh yeah, that kind of going with the porcupine, right with the fish with Jesus. Right, So we got the lionfish, it's still got the quills. Like just this time my mind works, Let's go back to drugs. Okay, this is something that Christians are going to struggle with they're going to say, no, drugs are an evil when we look at what they do, the side effects, how they literally destroy lives and families. Like, clearly there is an example here, or an argument here to be made for government stepping in and declaring drugs illegal. And obviously when they're made illegal, nobody will use them. Wait what, I think that's how it's supposed to work. But anyway, let's discuss this from a Christian libertarian point of view. Yeah, the drug war to me is a non negotiable from a libertarian point of view. And I'll tell you why, because it is endemic to everything that we Every point that we try to make from an economics point of view and from an individual liberty point of view are like encapsulated in why the drug war is wrong. There is and I'll just say it, like right up, there is no good argument for the drug war. I will maintain that until the day I die, because there is. Just It's true. There is no good argument. Even if you were just now and I'll grant that drug that that hard drugs and all these things like that, I like, they're bad for you. There are many many of them are going to be straight up sinful for you to participate in. That is I'm not trying to say like this is all great, I'm I'm an endorsing you to go do LSD tomorrow or something like that. Is not what I'm trying to do. Okay, I've never even I've never taken you. I've never done marijuana or anything like that. I don't care to. And it's I think that even that could there's a difference set of arguments there. But even so, it's like, I'm not doing this because I just want to go smoke pod or something like that. No, that's not the point. But rather that everything that the government does purport to reduce drug use or somehow curb the negative effects on society from drugs, they do, anything they do under the auspices of those sorts of things are completely backfiring, never work, and are unconstitutional and immoral from the outset. And why is that, Well, like, there's no good argument for this, so we can I've written articles like I think I've said, like there's alistical out there is, like the six reasons why the drug war is the dumbest foreign or foreign the dumbest domestic policy that's ever been conceived, and they range from things like the fact is that the drug war is unconstitutional, that it's an abridgement of personal liberty, that it results in a ratcheting up of the state, that it doesn't actually accomplish the goals that it even sets out to do. That it is that it. I mean, there's other things in there too, and I'm not going to get altitude to them. But the reason that Christians, I think make this mistake is that they conflate personal morality with that which should be executed by a justice system. There is all sorts of good reasons why Christians should support UH and try to help people get out of drug problems. There is no good reason, though, for the state to step in and abridge the individual liberty. That is that, I mean, if we if we purport to support individual liberty, then that should include the ability to do things that are potentially harmful to us. That's that's a reality. If we're if we just say, well, if if it harms you, then we should prohibit it. Well, that's a justification. We're all sorts of things that we like. Are we gonna stop playing football? Are we gonna tell people you shouldn't play sports, or you shouldn't run too much, or you shouldn't drink too much water, or I mean, like you can come, shouldn't eat too much food because obesity is an even bigger problem from a health point of view than hard drugs these days. But you don't see us trying to do to outlaw that, and if we did, you would hear Christians up in arms about it, because nobody wants to give up. A pot luck, especially especially the Baptist doctor Horaman. Come on, now, they're gonna get mad about that one. Yeah, they might, they might resort to dance. And at that point, I mean, that's a terrible choke. That didn't make sense at all. I got it. But any of these things that we would say like are actually realistically bigger problems. But it's because their people are exercising individual liberty. And yeah, they're responsible for that. Well guess what, so are drugs. But there's also other reasons why we shouldn't support the drug war, ranging from like the fact is that like even again I told you already, I don't I don't want to smoke pot. I don't do marijuana or anything like that. But you know what, we're one hundred years behind schedule of developing realistic treatments using you know, drugs like THC or molecules like that that could theoretically help people, and we're not doing any research whatsoever because of the way in which we have prohibition. Like that's that's that's just stupid. You're absolutely right there. I've interviewed so many doctors over the years that have specifically been treating cancer and th well, marijuana has an effect, has a very positive effect in treatment of cancer, and we don't go near it as a country because it's illegal. I'm like, I'm it may or may not. I'm like, I'm not. I don't have enough knowledge to say whether or not it really is that. But you know what, the fact is that we don't know because we haven't done the research. We have hypotheses and we have been unable to test because the government says no, come on, like, that's that's you know what that is. That's barbarism, that's superstition. And we as Christians are not to be superstitious like this. We don't believe in that sort of crap, and so instead we are like Christianity is why we have modern science. That's the reality, guys, get with it. And despite the fact that there are of course those atheist scientists out there you want to tell you otherwise and things like that, like that's garbage too. The fact is that it is because of Christianity, because of our faith that we have shared for thousands of years now, that modern science has been able to have been part of the increase of human flourishing in a way that heretofore never been seen. You know, it's like, it's not magic, guys, it's human ingenuity. And when you try to abrogate that through the forces of government, you are going to make mistakes the whole Like this is the dear Dre McCloskey in the Bourgeois series that that she wrote years ago, is like kind of adamant about this. Is that when you change your perspective about human dignity and innovation, which comes from frankly the Christian worldview, it changes the world. And that's why we are so prosperous now. And that's that's a good thing, and we should be heralding and trumpeting that. So you know, that's incidentally, I can kind of you can kind of dovetail that into another major thrust of what we do at LCI, which is that we we want to support ideas that that that bring forward human flourishing, and that means the free market. We're not just against government force, so you know, of course we are, but we're also pro market operations and trumpeting the good things that people do in the market to bring forward better human life, like that's a that's amazing, Like we should be we should be making like that argument just as much as the anti state argument that capitalism is great, that free markets bring forward human flourishing, that that that socialism is stupid, and so on, and you know that freedom is what makes this possible. Now I agree with you on that, and I mean, I think it's hypocritical when we say, you know, some drugs the government says are illegal other ones that get completely behind and they both have side effects. Ladies and gentlemen, like you look at the pharmaceutical companies, like every single one of them has drugs that have horrible side effects. But the government says those ones are okay, but these ones are bad. It makes sense to me. As long as you mention them in a commercial that you know, yes resulting you know, in diarrhea, hive and oh, by the way, you might die. Yes, as long as you say that you and you speak like the micromachine guy. You remember him because the side effects are always just real quick. And then then it shows the happy faces again because they're taking the drugs. Now. Now we're unfortunately running out of time. I know I'm going to have you back because we're gonna we're gonna be doing a lot together, absolutely think. But I want to bring up the Libertarian Christians sorry Libertarian Christians dot com. Chris, if you could show this to our audience right here. Look, I love this website. I gotta tell you, Uh, they sent me one of their books. This book is phenomenal. I've been reading it like crazy. It answers all the questions. You can get this book right there, you can see it faith uh Seeking Freedom or right there. But a lot of different books, a lot of different podcasts and doctor Horn. I'll let you have some last words on the website here. Oh well, thank you so. Face Seeking Freedom is kind of one of our little flagship products. Caleb has the advance reader copy of the second edition, if you will, that's coming out this summer, out in June, and we're kind of debuting it at Freedom Fest in July in Las Vegas, Nevada. We're really excited to be there about that, and that is a kind of Q and a version of like so many of the things that we talk about here. The idea is that we want to, you know, it to be a kind of conversational way of approaching the intersection of Christian thought and libertarian ideas. But we also do a lot of other things like the short little book What do Libertarian Christians Believe? Or Strangers with Candy from Mark Cardon, or if you're interested in history, look at The Anarchist Anabaptist by Cody Cook, Or if you want to look at like a Christian libertarian analysis of COVID, look at A House Divided, which is one of the best works of public theology of recent years that I've seen, just absolutely phenomenal stuff. And then we have all these free ebooks that we put together for anybody who wants to come in. At the cost of your email address, you can get any of these ebooks, uh, and these are these are great guys, and like a lot of it is just curated content that we put together over the years, and we want you to have those available to you. All of this is meant to help educate you about what it means to be a Christian and a free society and why we support that. These are all meant to help you learn and so come, come and join us. Like it's a great it's a great thing to be man. Uh, this is the it's so it's so exciting to be part of this movement now. Uh, in a in a world which we just see so much degradation of our culture, degradation and Christian values and just so so many awful things. But to see the hope that that Jesus brings, you know, is starting in your church and your worship and all that, but then also in understanding that like God created a win win world for you to live in if we will just follow through with it, let's them build that up. Yeah no, I absolutely love that. And I cannot endorse Libertarian Christians dot Com enough. Like I want my audience to go here and join our side. We have cookies, like it's great. Here, really good cookies we do we do. Yeah, all right, well, doctor Horne, it's been awesome having you on. I'm gonna go ahead and close us out if you'd hold on one more minute post production to say oah, goodbyes. I appreciate it, but again, thank you for your time here and for all your work like it truly does benefit society. Thank you so much, Caleb. It's an honor to be here with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for what you're doing. And I look forward to all sorts of fun things with you in the future. Oh yeah, it's gonna be a great time. All right. Well, there you go, ladies and gentlemen, Libertarian Christians we exist and none only do we exist, we have the knowledge and the wisdom to back up our belief system. And if you're interested in that, if you're curious, then I can think of no better place for you to go than liberty libertarian Christians do so please go check them out. Church Estate is brought to you imparted by colonialized Spokane Independent Agents, Finders Insurance, and Mark three seven dot Com. I'm Caleb Collier. I was born for a storm. Welcome to the five. This is Caleb Callier with Church and State. Are you tired of your device spying on you? Ladies and gentlemen, we live in nineteen eighty four. Your phones, your tablets, your smart televisions. They all are spying on you. And this is why I heavily endorse Mark thirty seven dot com. 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