Let's Have a Discussion About Lutheranism with Pastor David Ramirez

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Proposing that the City of Spokane Valley issue of proclamations stating that our city is a Second Amendment sanctuary. Welcome to the. Fire today on Church and State. Let's have a discussion about Lutheranism with Pastor David Ramirez. Hello Christian Patriots, and welcome to Church and State, where we drive morality and religion over tolerance and apathy. And I'm your host, Caleb Callier, once again your favorite for all Right Chalk Jock and the show that talks about politics and religion. Jesus Christ is our referee, so it's always nice and clean. Head on over to Church and State dot media to check out all of the great shows that we produce for you. While you're there, please fill out the submission form. We want to get in contact with you and we want to send you our newsletters, So name email phone number and you'll be hearing from yours truly. Also, I mean check out some of the great shows, I mean some of these amazing guests that we've had over the past since twenty seventeen. Also check out some of the affiliates. It's a great way for you to support us, and of course, do hit that donate button for us to keep us alive and on the air. It costs us thousands of dollars to produce this show and we need help. And if you like the content, if you like your host, some of the discussions we have. We definitely need your help there. Lastly, if you want to get a hold of US Church and State seventeen seventy six at Proton dot me. Now, with that, let's go ahead and get into the episode. I've been open with you, audience. I am in a transitional point. I have been exploring Lutheranism quite a bit, and I've told you before I believe that I am a Lutheran now. And I also told you that as I was struggling with where I was denominationally, that it really bugged me. I like labels. I think labels are important. I think labels get us to places. I tell you all the time. If you don't like labels, try to go and grocery shopping. It's going to be a little bit rough. I don't know what's in this can. Could be tomatoes, could be I have no idea. No labels are important, and this is why I describe myself now as a Lutheran. But I wanted to have a conversation with somebody that knows a lot more about it than me, and so I'm just absolutely blessed to bring on Pastor David Ramirez. Now he's the pastor of Saint Paul's in Wisconsin. He's a graduate Fort Wayne Theological Seminary, and he's passionate about teaching the faith, in particular Bible history, which I absolutely love. And I'm excited to have this conversation. Pastor Ramirez, thank you for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having me. Absolutely. Now you just heard my little intro there, and you know, I'm sure you're excited to hear that. You know this, this far right shock jock has decided he's Lutheran. Yeah, absolutely, more than Marrier. There we go. I thought it'd be an interesting conversation to just explore exactly what Lutheranism is. And perhaps before you begin, I will tell you this joke. I've told a few people it. Do you know what Lutherans say to every other Protestant? No? I don't, but I could guess something like you're wrong. You're welcome, is what I was going to say. Yeah, right, yeah, where would it be without luther And so let's break it down a lot of people when they hear Lutherans, they're going to automatically assume, oh, they're woke, they're left, they've got female pastors, and they're open and affirming that's not always the case, is it. No, not at all. It is true that a decent chunk, about half of the Lutherans in America have gone woke. And this didn't start recently. It's started by the denial of the scriptures. And there's always been kind of a left leaning or progressive element in American Lutheranism, and you see that worldwide too. But this is true of literally every denominations. You have liberal Catholics, you have liberal Pentecostals, you have liberal Presbyteri Baptists, you can go down the list. Especially after the Enlightenment, you have this big movement to deny the inerrancy and the inspiration of the scriptures, and so that movement cut across denominations, unlike other issues like Salvation by works, which was cutting between bodies of believers. So yeah, oh go ahead, sorry, Oh I was. Just going to say, so yeah. In the United States, it really is tragic that most people, or at least many people, when they think Lutheran, they think the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is totally progressive. They can be barely considered Christians since they deny the scriptures, and so many fundamental doctrines. I'm not saying there aren't Christians in those bodies, but they've gone so far from the faith. But the Missouri Synod, that's the Senod I'm a part of, the Wisconsin Synod and other smaller confessional synods retained the core of the faith. And as I was exploring it, that became so important to me at what you just said, Confessional Lutheranism. And I've been reading everything I can get my hands on as far as what is Lutheran or who was Luther? What is Lutheranism? Have you read the book Has American Christianity Failed? By Wolf and Mueller? I think is his name, Yeah, Brian Wolf Mueller. Yeah, he's a pastor down in Texas. I have to confess I have not read the book. I saw that it came out, and I watched your program talking about it, so now I'm more familiar with it. But yeah, I know Wolf Mueller, and I know he's a really gifted writer, but I have not read it. So one of the things that for me and visiting some Lutheran churches, the reverence was just absolutely incredible to me. This is something that was so foreign to me as somebody who grew up in more Pentecostal charismatic churches where there was and this is no attack by the way to the audience, but there was a little bit more of an entertainment style. You know, you had the worship leader, and it was more emotional, kind of more hyper emotional. But when I went and sat in a Lutheran church and just experience this reverence for God and the hymnals which are so beautiful and literally have scripture references, so you know what you're singing about. You don't have to be concerned about what did I just sing? I know that's a worship song, but that didn't make sense. You know. That was my take on exploring the Lutheran Church. I absolutely agree. I mean, you know, the Bible does not lay down rules about every jot and tittle of how we're going to worship. That's true, and all Lutherans would confess that. But it goes back to the question what is the purpose of worship? And yes, it is to praise God, it is to offer a prayer and thanksgiving. All those things are true. But as Lutherans, we would say the primary purpose of worship is for God to bless us with his word, his sacraments, and that's the primary purpose. Now do we respond with thank you and praised you a almighty one? Absolutely? But unfortunately, I again not to attack your audience or anyone else, but I think it is fair to say there is a different conception of what is the purpose of worship between kind of your evangelical or non denomned church or even charismatic too, versus a Lutheran understanding, whereas you've got a big emphasis on how do we get people to make a decision for Christ or have a very unique spiritual experience instead of I like to say Lutherans are first and foremost about meat and potatoes, and you're going to get those meat and potatoes every single week. Now, maybe your emotions are gonna follow along and you are going to feel overjoyed. But what's more important than whether your meal is tasty is whether it's nutritious, and that's what we always focus on. I absolutely love that in the German tradition, right, meat and potatoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's wonderful and that's what I want. I'm tired of churches that offer just milk. I want something to chew on. You know, metaphorically speaking, but that's what I'm looking for, and that's what I found within the LCMS church. What would you say, because there were some people out there that would say, well, Lutherans are just you know, Protestant Catholics. I mean, kind of making fun of that, but that's what they would say. Yeah, I usually hear it in the Midwest, something like you guys are just Catholic light, you know, or something like that. I would say, the best description, and Luther used this all the time because even in his lifetime there were non Lutheran Protestants. I mean, the Lutherans were the original Protestants, the original Evangelicals. However, there were people who complained to Luther and the other Lutherans, you guys haven't gone far enough. And Luther's response always was no, our plan was not a revolt against all tradition, but rather we want to purify what had gone wrong in the Roman Catholic medieval Church. And there was a lot wrong. I mean, we'd be the first ones to admit that. And I don't think anyone besides Lutherans and maybe some others, have spoken so clearly and strongly against the Roman Catholic theology and practice. But we would say, guys, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If we're just going to reject everything Catholic, then we might as well reject baptism, the Lord's Supper, the scriptures, the creeds, everything. But instead it was a conservative Reformation saying let's conserve the best and let's dump the worst. I'm about halfway through Eric Mantexas's book on Luther, and exactly what you just said. Luther, I mean, when he wrote his thesis on really indulgences was the bulk issue there. He just wanted to correct an error in the Catholic Church. He did not want to divide the church. That was on his intent at all. And I mean unfortunately, well fortunately, I should say, you know, with the advent of the printing press and everything like this, it kind of got away from him a little bit in ways that he did not expect. Yeah, he really tried to keep that debate among more scholarly circles because it's kind of like, if you, I like to use this analogy, if you're a son in a family and your dad is just being a jerk, and I don't mean just grumpy, but he's doing bad things. You don't want to go straight to the authorities. You want to work with him so you can save your your family. And Luther wanted to do that. He was a little naive. He thought if he would only write the right to the Pope, the Pope would say, oh, no, these indulgences are going on. And the Pope was in on it and viewed him as a threat. But he always wanted to go in a process where he respected authority and he tried to change from within. Now there was a point where he said, no, this is so bad, we have to take action, but it was only after years of work, great reflection and gaining other people who agreed with him, and so he wasn't just like a rebellious yahoo to put it that way. No, you're absolutely right. I love also that you brought up, you know, some of the traditions, some of the creeds. The way I've been looking at it, and what I've been saying on this show is the Bible is the ultimate authority. And obviously every Lutheran is going to say that, but these creeds, the traditions, they're like the rumble strips on the road and American Christianity. For me, I've seen a lot of people that want to just follow the Bible, but they don't have those rumble strips in place, and so they're shooting off in all sorts of different directions. I think our history, our church history, and some of these amazing creeds that have been written are so vital to keeping us on that straight and. Narrow path right absolutely, And I would say I think the best way to explain this to someone who's not a Lutheran is to say, Okay, you've got your favorite preachers, you've got your favorite book of sermons or podcasts or radio programs. You value that, don't you? Well, how much more should you value the deposit of the faith all throughout the centuries, the Apostles creed, the nice Scene Creed, the Ethnasian Creed, especially the nice Seene Creed, which we use every Sunday. You can look up every single one of those phrases and literally find it in the Bible. It's there. It's just that godly men summarized it. So if we're okay with summaris if we're okay with sermons. I've got a really good friend, Pastor David Peterson. He always gets embarrassed when people say this, But he's one of the best preachers in the Missouri Synod, and he likes to bring up a question when he talks about preaching. Why do we preach? Why don't we just get up and read the Bible? And I don't know if you've ever thought about that, or if your listeners have ever thought about that, but why don't we If the Bible is the Word of God and it is perfect and holy, totally sufficient for all faith in life, why do we need preachers? Why don't we just get up there and have someone read the scriptures. Wouldn't that be a better use of our time? Well? No, because preaching is saying, here's these truths applied to a specific time, place, people, and that's why God gives the church preachers and teachers and all these people to explain the faith. I'd say the same thing about the Creeds, the Small Catechism, writings of Luther, or your favorite preacher podcast. You know, all those things are helpful. So it's not an either or. I think some people say, hey, you know, are you a about the Bible, or you about the Lutheran Confessions, or are you about the Bible or are you about the Creed. I'm like, why pick? Yeah, scriptures the ultimate authority, it trumps everything. But look at all these other gifts. I absolutely love that. Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to dive into some of the things that perhaps my audience is not familiar with as far as Lutheranism goes, and there's a lot there that as I went in, I was like, Oh, this is new, this is brand new to me. I've never experienced this before. One of the big ones is, of course, sacraments and communion. And I got to tell you, maybe it was just because I was searching, but the reverence behind the communion and this idea of a mystery, not that it transforms into his body and blood, but that He is there, that was groundbreaking for me and really made me see communion in a whole new light. But I'd love for you to explain that, you know, to the late person who's not familiar with this idea. Sure, absolutely so, I'll give the thirty second answer and then we can go further in. When somebody comes to me, especially from a Protestant background, that believes it's symbolic or that it's just a representation. They'll say, why do you believe it's the true body and blood of the Lord that's being given and received. I say, simply because Jesus said so. And I know that's kind of a tried answer, but he says, this is my body, and unless you're Bill Clinton, is does indeed mean his? And that's great, all right, Maybe that's a little. Racey for your clean es at all. No, you said you were a shock jack, so I figured I could get away with it. But sure, yeah, I mean means is. And this gets into not just the theory of language, but how we use language normally in our day to day life. If I say that is a book or that a chair, you assume I mean it literally. In less something else determines that I'm obviously speaking symbolically, like a common phrase. If I said to somebody, hey, go, you know, just get out of here, I don't want to hear that. I don't literally mean them to leave the room or go jump off a cliff. Nobody really means for them to jump off a cliff. We all understand there is idiomatic or a symbolic language, but that's never where we start. And also, Jesus when he says, this is my body and this is my blood. This is not a time when he's telling a parable. It's not a time when he is speaking in you know, mysterious language. Sometimes he'll say something and then he tells the disciples this is what I meant. He does do that on occasion, but here this is his last will and testament. Lawyers, if you go to a lawyer and say, help me write my will, they will not want you to use idiomatic language. No symbolic language mean exactly what what you mean. This is Jesus's last will and testament to his church before his death. Yes he's risen, Yes he comes back, but he is deathly serious. And when you are writing a will, when you are saying, this is what I am leaving you as a sign and token and pledge, it's real and you need to know you're not orphans away from me once I ascend into heaven, but I am still leading and guiding my church through the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God. But also you get a real sign in token, my true body, my true blood. So that's how I would go into it. Yeah, and expanding on that a little bit, you know, the mystery there a lot of us. You know, maybe we consider ourselves intellectual or whatnot, but we don't like mysteries. I mean we do. We watch television shows on some mysteries, but we want at the conclusion of the show, we want to have the answer. We want to know what it was, all right, And for this there are some mysteries that we just in our finite human minds we can't comprehend. And as I understand it, that's what this communion actually is. Yeah. Absolutely, we can say certain things about it, but we don't go further than what scripture does. For instance, the Roman Catholics, they believe in what's called transubstantiation, where there's the bread and then the substance of the bread is gone and now you have Christ's body there, but it still tastes like bread, looks like bread. All this kind of stuff. It's all based on Aristotelian physics, which I don't want to bore people with, but it's a human philosophical system to explain a mystery. Now, when Lutherans say we believe in mystery, we don't mean we can't say anything about it. Some people use mystery as kind of a cop out, like oh, it's mysterious because they don't have an answer. We're readily and willing to say. Yeah. Jesus says, this is my body, this is my blood. Paul refers to it, this is bread, so it still is bread, it still is his body, or now it is his body at the same time. But how that happens scripture doesn't explain. I'm content to just leave it alone and confess what Jesus tells us. There's a great hymn in our in our hymnal, which it sounds like you've been using the maroon one. Yes, yeah, six six twenty two if I could quote it real quick, absolutely, yeah, it's it's it's a beautiful hymn. It's a hymn that that I think is the best communion him in the hymnal. I'm sure people would disagree with me. It's verse five and the hymn is Lord Jesus Christ. You have prepared this, this feast, the Lord's supper. But in verse five it's written though reason cannot understand yet, faith this truth embraces. So there's mystery and truth at the same time. Your body Lord is even now at once in many places. I leave to you. How this can be Your word alone suffices me. I trust its truth unfailing. So we're going to confess what we know is true. This is his body, this is his blood. But how that's possible, How exactly the inner workings of that, I don't know. I don't need to know. Frankly, I'm on a need to know basis. And what's good enough for me is that Jesus said it. I would agree with you, and to you know, Christians who might be having some difficulty understanding this, I would submit to you the Trinity because that is in fact a mystery. How that I mean, we can kind of understand it, but it doesn't really make sense. And people have said, you know, well it's like water, but that's not actually true. That's actually more modalism and wrong. So yeah, you guys all, if you're a Christian, you believe in a mystery, and that mystery is the Trinity. Yeah, yeah, that's very well said. It's true. So let's transition over to baptism because I've had some people say, well, you know, Lutheran's believe you have to be baptized in order to enter into heaven. I've had some discussions and I've done some reading. Obviously my take on it, and you can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, But we should make every effort as Christians to be baptized. But does that mean that if somebody you know is in the car and listening to the radio and all of a sudden is compelled, Oh my gosh, I am a sinner. I need Jesus in my life, and the next instant gets in a car wreck and dies, does that mean he's going to Hell? Absolutely not right, yeah, yeah, So I would pull back and first say, in any facet of life, we have to distinguish between the rule and the exceptions, and we don't despise the rule, even because sometimes you got to have exceptions, like if you know, let's say your wife, all of a sudden her water breaks and you have to get her to the hospital. You're not following the speed limit, but that doesn't mean speed limits, don't you know. And so, in the same way Christ has told us, here is how I pour out the forgiveness of sins, Go make disciples of all nations, baptize and teach them. And so normally speaking, yes, of course we should baptize. We would consider it a means of grace. It's not opposed to the cross. I like to use the analogy of the power plant and power lines sometimes when I talk to folks who say, well, baptism doesn't save you, it's by grace through faith, And I'll say, well, first of all, Saint Peter says, literally, baptism now saves you, So you have a problem. But secondly, and more importantly, they're not pitted against each other. It's not either or what's more important, the power plant or the power lines? Well, the power plant is the Cross is more important. But Christ has said, here's how I'm delivering this forgiveness to you. Yeah, through the Word, through the water, through all these things. But even baptism, we would say, is a word to God, connected with an element and applied to an individual who's being cleansed and forgiven. So I would say that with baptism, baptism is something that isn't absolutely necessary. Some of our theologians will say, it's not the absence of baptism that damns, but it's the rejection of it. So we can think of a huge exception the entire Old Testament. Those people were believers, they weren't baptized because God had not provided that means of grace yet, but they had other means of grace. And of course people are only saved by grace through faith. But that doesn't mean we should despise something that brings us God's forgiveness. Most people would rather attend a corporate team building workshop than search for auto and home insurance. Feel that synergy. That's why the Zebra searches for you, comparing over one hundred insurance companies to find savings no one else can come today at the Zebra dot com. Who's ready for the trust fall Whether you're wrenching in your garage or deep in the bay at work. Getting the right fix fast is what matters most with direct Hit by identifis you get access to real world repairs from real technicians, the same solutions the pros rely on every day. Just search by code, symptom or even sound and get step by step guidance that actually works, from di wires to full time texts. Direct hit helps you diagnose quicker, fix smarter, and skip the guesswork verified repairs, expert support, pro level results no matter where you turn the wrench. Identifixed direct Hit built for the way you work excellent. And now along those same lines is infant baptism, and there are a lot of Christians that have some struggles with this. I loved in the book Has American Christianity Failed? Brian went through this and basically he had the analogy of if I'm a grandfather and I want to give a gift to my grandchild and the parents you know my kids tell me, no, we don't want you to give them any gifts, not until they're old enough to understand it, and also not until they're old enough to ask for it. I absolutely love that, because you know, I'm not a grandfather yet, but I will want to shower my grandchildren with gifts. That's the explanation that I love for why that Lutheran Church does infant baptism. Yeah. No, that's a good analogy. I'll throw another analogy. I love analogies. I think they help us so much. I would go back to Matthew twenty eight. Go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them right there, because sometimes people will say, you read the New Testament and there's no specific instance of a baby or a small child being baptized, and I would say, yeah, you're looking at the wrong verses. First of all, when people's whole households are baptized, it's not like America, where you know, we think of a nuclear family, mom, dad, a couple kids, so maybe there were babies or not. When that Philippian jailer gets baptized, he's the chief jailer, he's up high on the totem pole. He undoubtedly has slaves in his household, which are considered part of his household, and those slaves probably had families. So I mean, we're talking about dozens and dozens of people who get baptized when he's converted. So first of all, I would say, I do think that infant baptism is mentioned, just not explicitly, but more importantly. And here's the analogy I wanted to throw out. If I walked into a room and let's say you were in that room and your wife, and I walk into that room and I say, hey, I'm throwing a birthday party for myself. You're all invited. And then I walk out of that room and you turn to your wife and you say, hey, honey, it's going to be real nice going over next Saturday to celebrate his birthday and she goes, what are you talking about? You weren't invited. Well, what would you say? He walked into the room and said, ah. So I always try to turn around that question to people who don't think infant baptism is biblical. It's the burden of proofs is not on me to find where there's an infant baptized somewhere in scripture. The burden of proof is actually on you to show me where it says you shouldn't, because Jesus is very clear, go baptize all nations. That's all peoples, that includes infants. So show me where it says no infants. Of course, there's a theology behind that, where the idea is that if you don't, cognitively, in the fullness of you know, kind of like an older child, say I'm a sinner and I need grace, then it's not proper. But we don't view baptism primarily as our demonstration of our obedience to Christ. It is that, you know, but at the same time it's deeper, and that we are saying we are sinners, Our children are sinners under original sin. They need this, we want to give them to it kind of back to Wolf Miller's example, and there is nothing prohibiting giving it to them, especially when Jesus says, let the children come to me, and this promises for you and your children. So why would we deprive them? And I've never heard a good answer ever of why we would deprive them. I like that a lot. Now we're coming up on a break here. I want to do your website real, real quick. Chris is going to show that to us Saint Paul's ug dot org. This is the church that you, pastor, And if anybody has any questions, I'm sure that they could reach out to your website and get in contact with you. But we're going to continue. Okay, excellent. I love that, So please audience, if you have questions about this, reach out to Pastor Ramirez and we're going to continually. And gentlemen, Pastor Ramirez has agreed to do a little bit more time with us. I got some really really good question Cessatianism Office of the Keys. We're going to be talking about all that when we come back after the break. Ladies and gentlemen, I want all of you to be a walking billboard. Some of us don't have platforms such as church and State. But you know what, we can wear T shirts and engage in great conversations with Christians and Patriots all across the country. Stand Up Now Apparel is the best T shirts out there. 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Let's talk about cessationism next, sir, if you will, I have for my own personal journey, I went from being more of a hardcore continuationalist to where the gifts that were established, you know that we retain those and we're going to have people that can heal and prophesy, to where then I became more of a very cautious continuationalist and now I'm describing myself on airs as a soft cessationist. Can you explain that to the audience what maybe that means? Yeah, so I think I don't know exactly what you mean by it, but I think that I'm guessing that we would be in agreement of this where Lutheranism would would say that those special spiritual gifts of whether it be prophecy or healing or speaking in tongues. They like, whenever you hear promises of the Lord, he is the speaker, who's actually hearing it, and who is it directed towards. Kind of like God spoke through Moses. Every Christian would agree with that God spoke through Moses and told the Israelites many things. Let's just throw out one. Don't eat pork right now, Christians eat pork. There's no Christians. Well, I mean maybe there are some, but the entire history of the Church, we've said that was a command of God, and it was directed specifically to the Israelites, and it does not apply to us. And I don't think we need to go into why that is. But you know, we're under the New Testament now. The story of America's beginnings is bigger than a single day. It's bold ideas of everyday people free and enslaved, who worked, hoped, and pushed forward together. It's the story of a place unlike anywhere else where, history still feels alive. And if your family wants to understand how our Independence Day came to pass, then today is the day to plan your visit Colonial Williamsburg. The revolution is here. And I would say it's similar, it's different, obviously, but we would say who Jesus is speaking to to exp back those signs is the apostles and the Apostolic ministry. Now I want to say both the Apostles and the Apostolic ministry because it's true. And I'd be the first one to admit that the Apostles go out and it's not just that they can actually perform these miracles, but also sometimes the spirit falls upon people that they're preaching to. But let's get into very briefly what the point of these charismatic gifts are. The point of these gifts that they're signs. There's signs of the truthfulness of the Gospel. And I would talk about this is the same pattern of Jesus. Jesus does miracles all over the place. He casts up demons, he heals the sick, he turns loaves and fishes and multiplies them. But it's very clear, especially in the Gospel of the Gospel of John, doesn't call miracles miracles. Inspired to call them signs because the point of these miracles is to point toward Jesus and his work, his person, his work. The meat and potatoes, these other things are pointing towards that. So that's when the apostles go out, they are given these signs to confirm that they are prophets of the Lord. Very similar. I mean, we see this pattern all through scripture. In the Old Testament. For instance, Moses, he goes to the Israelites and they're like, why should we believe you? And then he throws the staff on the ground, and God's given him signs to confirm. But those signs are just confirmations. The main message of Moses is not that I have parlor tricks, but rather the truthfulness of the Word of God that I'm speaking. And so that's how you know a true prophet from a false prophet. That's not needed in the church, now that we have the scriptures, that's not needed in the church. Now that his word has been confirmed. The Holy spirits led the apostles into all truth, and we have the deposit of faith. I would agree with you that we should be a little soft on saying it's not needed. As a general rule, Like we talked about earlier, the general rule is that we should not expect these things and that we shouldn't insist that if a believer doesn't have them or experience them that they're kind of a second teer believer or something like that. But I would not go so far. Yeah, I would not go so far as to say they never happen, because all through church history there are incidences of miraculous things. Now, some of this was just made up stuff so that the local bishop could set up a shrine and get lots of money, you know, I mean Luther liked to joke around about how there was you know, three skulls of John the Baptist. You know that you could get years off of purgatory. So I mean that stuff is silly. The same time, there's lots of examples in New Testament Christian Church history, you know, post the Biblical Age, where people have credible testimony about miracles. And you can think of Polycarp. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's an early church father. He has a vision. He's not an apostle. He has a vision of his impending martyrdom. I have no reason to disbelieve that. So I think that I like that term. I'd have to think about it more, but kind of a soft cessationism. It's my understanding. I've never been out on the mission field in a pagan like an old school pagan area that's not heard the gospel for who knows how many centuries. But I have heard from missionaries that when they go into different places sometimes there are these signs. I wasn't there. I don't know, but at the end of the day, it's kind of like, is this Jesus's body? Is it his blood? I can say what I do know. I know that as a believer when I read the New Testament, those signs and wonders are tied tightly to the Apostolic ministry. And if God granted them there for a purpose, which we actually know, to confirm what they were preaching, and also to confirm that they were His direct representatives, Praise be to God. If God chooses to do that other places, awesome. If God chooses to save people apart from baptism, that's his business. But that's not the general rule, and I'm not going to look for it. I'm not going to be sad if I'm not giving it, just like I'm not sad that I'm not a prophet like Isaiah. The word of the Lord doesn't come to me and speak directly. I've got more than I could ever want right here in the Bible. So that would be my answer on that. I love that response, and I mean, as you were talking, there were so many things that came to my mind. You know that Jesus said that a wicked generation seeks signs and wonders. And I love that you tied in Moses there, because here's a man so many signs in way I mean, I mean, the Israelites had experienced all the plagues and been spared from it. They're they're wandering around in the desert and you know, the Red Sea has parted for them. They're they're being you know, attacked by flying serpents, and Moses raises the staff with a serpent on it and they go away. They're being fed by by manna and quail from heaven, like all these amazing signs. And as soon as Moses disappears for a little bit, what do they do? They all go back into the paganism. So yeah, if your faith is completely just surrounding you, you have to have almost in a sense of entitlement where it has to have gifts, then I'm sorry you're following the wrong faith. And I'll pause there because I did have another point that I wanted to bring up, but I'd loved it for you to interject there. Sure, yeah, I was just going to say, like what you said is like so true. With the signs and the wonders, aren't the thing that we should be clinging to. And what you said about the Israelites is perfect example. You could also mention, like the unbelieving Jews at the time of Jesus and you quoted that, you know they want signs and wonders. Jesus has provided more signs and wonders than anyone could need, you know, faithfully, and they still don't believe. And that's the point. Faith does not come by signs and wonders. I would even say faith does not come by even looking at the cross. Most of the people watching Jesus be crucified did not believe. Faith comes by the proclamation of the Gospel, rooted in the historical atonement of Jesus Christ. But that's where we need to be finding our solace, our comfort, our rock, not with this other stuff. If God grants those things, that's his business. But you know, conversion happens. Christians are made through the Gospel, not through signs. Amen to that the other things. You know, we were talking about prophecy there, and Polycarp is absolutely amazing. I highly recommend people read his works. But even Martin Luther. You know, prior to Martin Luther, there was an individual by the name of huss who also had issue with the Roman Catholic Church and indulgences, and he was ultimately martyred and during the execution, the executioner said to him, we're going to cook this goose. And his coat of arms was a goose, and so that's that's what the reference was. But he said as he was about to be killed that in one hundred years a swan would emerge that you couldn't cook, couldn't boil, or kill, and Martin Luther was referred to as the Swan. So there's even a prophecy there with with Lutheranism. Yeah, absolutely. And again if you you know, said, would you swear, would you take an oath that that was a true prophecy, I wouldn't say yes. I actually do believe that it was a true prophet see because of all the circumstances, but I'm never going to rest my faith on it. I'm not going to like take a vow and say my faith is dependent on that prophecy. Because again I've got the scriptures, so I don't want to say those things are nothing, but they're nothing essential. Absolutely I completely agree and understand that. Now, now let me dive into the Office of the Keys, because this is one that I think for you know, your average Protestant, this one might be an issue. And I'll even be open and share with the audience. You know my wife, who has just an incredible mind. She was educated through classical Christian curriculum and as just a beautiful person. But as I was talking to her about this, she had some questions and so I'm going to verbalize those coming from my wife's mouth. But Office of the Keys goes from John twenty and it's where Jesus instructs his disciples to forgive sins. Now, the Lutheran Church and certainly weigh in on this if I get anything wrong, but as I understand that the Lutheran Church practices that to where the priest can forgive sins but not we'll come back to that. But my wife's argument was, well, if you now believe that the gifts have ceased, could you not make the argument that this the Office of the Keys has also ceased, and the mic is all yours, sir. Sure. Yeah, that's a great question, and it somewhat reminds me of the problem that Paul is dealing with in Romans, where I mean, it's one of those things where you only hear one side of the conversation. But obviously some of the people he's writing to are worried. If you're saying God has rejected Israel, then is he going to reject us sometime? And that's why Paul has to say, well, you got to make a distinction. There's physical Israel, Israel of the flesh, as he calls it, and then there's the true Israel, which has always existed, and that's the Church, Old Testament and New Testament. And so he's got to explain why God hasn't broken a promise. So I would hypothesize that your wife, being a sharp lady, it seems like, is saying, hey, if some if God promised some gifts and they stopped, why wouldn't the forgiveness of sins through the Office of the Keys stop too? Is that a fair assessment, Yes, as fair assessment, yeah, okay, So my response would be again, I know I sound kind of like a broken record, but let's go back to general things, in particular things. Tyler Reddick here from twenty three to eleven, racing another check or flag for the books. Time to celebrate with Chumba jump in at Chumba Casino dot com. Let's jumpa no purchase necessary btw group void work prohibited by mow CTNC twenty one plus sponsored by chump Buck Casino. We already talked about the commandments through Moses by God to the Israelites. They were never meant to be for all times, all people's, all places. However, the Ten Commandments natural law that was written on the heart of man all the way back in the creation, and so those things don't pass away. That expresses the eternal will of God on how we're to love Him and love us, love each other. And so in the same way we have to make a distinction when it comes to special gifts of the spirit and what God promises to his church unilaterally for all times, all people's all places. And so I would say the forgiveness of sins is promised starting in Genesis three, after the Fall, he says, I'm going to send you the seed the seed of the woman, and he's going to get harmed, his heel will be bitten and struck, but he will crush the serpent's head. And we know as Christians that's talking about Jesus as the Messiah, and so he needs to atone for us. And all through all the books of the Bible, forgiveness has talked about as this is what I'm going to do. So I would say the office of the keys is that particular church power to actually forgive. And I don't know if you want me to shift into what that means priest pastor people, is that okay? If I get yeah, please please do Actually that was going to be my follow up. Sure, okay, So the way I defined it is that particular church power that Christ is given to his church to forgive sins. And I use the word church on purpose because that is not the exclusive property or possession is a better word of the pastor or the priest or, whoever. But it's given to the whole church. And you see this very clearly in the New Testament. Jesus is talking to his eleven because Judas has hung himself, so he's out of the picture, but he's talking to his disciples, they ordain other people, and so those are the men, those pastors who are going to use the office of the Keys publicly in the public divine service. But he gives it to the whole church. And we know this because Matthew eighteen says, if somebody's sinned against you, what do you do? Well, you try and win the brother back, And he goes through the steps, go to them privately, take witnesses, and then take it to the whole church. But the presumption there is that you can, as an individual Christian forgive someone, and it's not like you and your the forgiveness that you express is different than mine as a pastor. The only difference is one of office. It's not one of kind, because forgiveness is just the proclamation of the Gospel, and that's given to every single Christian. You know, we as Lutherans would say we want to have the pastor do that in the service because we've set him aside. It's not like he has special juju juice. It's not like he's a higher type of Christian. But it's in office. We've set him aside to act on behalf of the church as a whole. In the public setting. But no Lutheran would ever say to you have children. Y, yeah, I would never say to you if I was your pastor, You've got to call me over. If you're going to forgive your children when they disobey you. You know, no, you know the. Same gospel I know. And then you, as a father, am saying I forgive you son, daughter, because you've repented, you did wrong. You repented, I'm going to express that forgiveness. And the power of that forgiveness, of course, comes from the Cross and from our Lord. The reason why we say pastors can get up and say I forgive you all your sins is because they've been put into that office to act publicly, in the in the corporate congregational gathering, to do that. But actually, i'll read something for you. This question does come up quite a bit. So in our service, we start out in the name of the Father's Son, Holy Spirit, and then we have a confession of sins. You've probably experienced this. And then I confess my sins to the Lord as well. And then I turn around and I say these words upon this your confession, like, Okay, you've confessed your sins. I by virtue of my office. So it's not like I because I have some indelible secret power like some Roman Catholics will talk about. But I, by virtue of my office, as a called ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of goden to you, which is just saying I'm preaching the Gospel to you right now. I'm telling you what you already know. But I've been I've been set aside to do this for the congregation and in the stead. So in the in the place of eze presentative and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So the whole church, men, women, children, pastors, here is the Word. They're all given the same Gospel, and they are to share it wherever is appropriate. And we would just say we think it's best, according to God's direction to have the pastoral office and to have the pastor as the shepherd of the congregation, as that official representative, express that gospel and publicly forgive sins. But I don't know, I feel like I'm just running on now. I hope that no, no, no, I think that is an absolute beautiful response. I'm obviously going to share that with people that are close to me, because I think the way you describe that and explain that it makes absolute sense. And by the way, you'd be a very busy man if you had to go to every family who wanted their kids to be forgiven that no private life whatsoever. So well, absolutely ahead. I was just going to say, I think that that's sometimes a sticking point for non Lutheran Protestants to say, who are you to forgive sins? Because only God can forgive sins, And we as Lutherans, would say, it's not either or, but it's both. And where I'm not getting up like Jesus does in the New Testament, he just forgives sins. I forgive you your sins. That's why people are so just absolutely appalled, and they say he's a blasphemer because they know the same thing that we know. Only God can forgive sins. But if you're the king of your country and you give a duke or a messenger a message, you've authorized him to proclaim your word. And so I'm not forgiving sins by my own power or by my own authority. It's all in the authority, by the authority of God. It's kind of like in a town, we set aside certain men to be police officers, to be policemen. You know, yes, I know there's such a thing as city since the rest, but you know that's that's exception, not the rule. But that doesn't mean a man doesn't keep order in his own house. And so it's it's kind of analogous in a similar way. You know. I like that a lot. All right, two more things, and I'm sorry it's going a little bit long, but if you have the time, I mean, I'm fascinated. Okay, excellent. Two things. One was the whole Calvinism Armenianism debate, and coming from somebody who I grew up as staunch Armeniists, the free will side of things, and it's not fair to say that Lutherans are in the middle, because Lutherans are actually before all of it. But there is kind of a different take from the Lutheran perspective. Yeah, absolutely, So I wish I could screenshare or a chart, but I'll try to describe it. So if you had a chart that had you know, you know, kind of like the answers to these questions over on the left hand side. So and then who's who's responsible? Either God or man? If the question is who's who's responsible for salvation for someone making it to Heaven? To put it bluntly, the hardcore Calvinist, and I want to just admit I don't know all the different varieties of Calvinism, but I mean the hardcore double predestination Calvinists, they would typically answer who's responsible for man's salvation one hundred percent God? Who's responsible for man's damnation one hundred percent God? And I would say why, why why do they have that system? Because it is neat and tidy and it's logical. This is where mystery can be abused by saying, well, it's a mystery, we just don't know. That's not what Lutherans mean. What Lutherans mean is is that we are only going to say so far as we can say things. So if a Calvinist says God's one hundred percent responsible, Man's one hundred percent responsible, and Arminian would never say man is totally responsible for his salvation, but they would say man's partially responsible. I think that's fair. Roman Catholics would say the same thing. Actually, they even a Roman Catholic would not say man's totally responsible. They would say, it's part God and part man. And then in the same way, who's responsible for their damnation? Well, it's it's man's fault, you know. So Lutherans would say who is responsible for salvation? We would say God one hundred percent, because we were dead in our trespasses, we were children of wrath, as Saint Paul says, and that we give all glory to God. And we say, yes, we do believe in predestination, that God not only knew this, but he caused it. But he caused it through the means of grace, and it happens in time. And I think that idea of the means of grace keeps Lutherans from going down the Calvinist or Arminian pathway and rather sticks to the Bible. How can I be sure of my salvation? Well, I don't need to believe in God lining everyone up at the beginning and saying you're in, you're out, you're in, you're out, and just hoping I'm in and being terrified of being out. But rather I can say, how do I know I'm saved? How do I know that God has chosen me, elected me? Because we do believe in election. Well, because I've heard the gospel. He's brought me to faith, because he's baptized me, because he gave me his body and his blood, because he keeps me sanctified in the true faith, all of those things. But then Lutherans, when we get to who's responsible for man's damnation or any man's damnation, we just say what the scriptures say. It's man. God has atoned for the sins of the world. Jesus died for everyone, and because of the stubborn human heart, they've rejected it. Now that doesn't we our logic can't see how both things can be true. If God's one hundred percent responsible for my salvation, how could I be responsible for my damnation. That is sometimes called the theologians cross because it is a difficult thing to think about. But like what you said about the Trinity is true here too. I'm just going to confess what the Bible says, and yes, dig into it and learn more about it. But at the same time, no, God is totally a one hundred percent responsible and man and his rejection is responsible for going to the place prepared not for men, but for the devil and his angels. It certainly makes a lot of sense to me the explanation there. And you know, the Bible tells us the only forget unforgivable sin is the rejection of the Holy Spirit, which means we do have a part there. We have to actively reject it. And for me, it was very easy for me to transition over to what the Lutherans tea because I mean, I look at man and we are desperately wicked, and there were some points that my Calvinist brothers were making that I had to acknowledge, and I believe that Lutheranism acknowledges that and gives the best explanation for it. I also love that you brought up Grace. I'm going to close the show with Grace, but before we get to Grace, Eschatology for me was such a huge thing. I mean, I grew up the late Great Planet Earth and Hagey and all these prophecies and keep your eye on Israel and all this stuff, and you can literally lose your mind looking at this and going, oh, you know, this just happened in the world, and that could be a sign that, you know, the mark of the Beast is upon us. Look at what they're doing with the technology and the vaccines, you know, that could be the mark of the beast. You can go crazy doing that, and honestly, you keep it actually takes your eyes off of Jesus. And I love actually as I've explored this and it's given me a lot of peace internally. The Lutherans take on the end times. Yeah, yeah, I mean our take is very simple, and that is is that Jesus is going to come back. We don't know when. Nobody knows the day time of the hour. I mean there are passes, passages in scripture where you should know that things are getting better or worse or things like that. But every generation thinks that they're living in the end times. Somebody, somebody, somebody going to get it right. But we are I wouldn't say unconcerned, but we're going to stick with what God's promised. Lo, I will be with you until the end of the age, and we don't know when that's going to happen, but until then, we've got his word, we have his sacraments, and we have the fellowship of believers to support us. And that's what we're gonna be content with. Instead of trying to do we would say goofy eschatological stuff to figure that that out. It's just it's kind of it's kind of useful, and like what you said, you can get obsessed and really really freak yourself out about it. Oh certainly, and I've been I've been part of that, and I like being vulnerable with the audience. But I was definitely in that camp of oh, yeah, it's upon us. And I look at the red heifer here and the sacrifice and the rebuilding of the third time. I mean, you do you start to spin out of control and so I apologize once again for taking you, you know, or holding you so long. But it's just been a great conversation with me or for me. But I want to I want to end this on grace because this was really what just was groundbreaking for me. And you know, has American Christianity talked about or failed has has talked about this, But I was in that peaks and valleys. I was in that where I was, you know, there was I was a bit pious. I was thinking God must be proud of me because what I've accomplished or what I'm doing, or I'm reading the Bible a lot, or I'm praying to where then I would just fall into despair and like Judas, and you know, oh my gosh, I'm such a terrible wretch and I've done a lot of bad things in my life, and they would, you know, re emerge. Satan would whisper that in my ear, you know, Oh, how could God love you? And when I discovered Lutheranism and that emphasis on grace and it's not about me, It's about Jesus and what he did, man, I feel amazing right now. Yeah. No, that's beautiful. Praise pe to God. I'm very happy for you. And knowing about grace what it really means. I don't know if you know that. Some people think it's cheesy. I like acronyms grace. You know, God's riches at Christ's expense. Have you heard that before? I am not, but I like it. Yeah, Oh it's beautiful. I mean then you realize, yeah, we're beggars before God and He's just poured out We're not even beggars, we're just dead and he pours out his grace and his riches. And then the beautiful thing about grace is that then you can turn to God and say I am not trying to worship you to get you to like me. You already like me in Jesus Christ. In fact, you love me. I'm your son now or daughter. And when I think about how should I praise you, I do it as a free man, free in Christ instead of a slave. And then when I look at my neighbors, I say, yeah, I'm not trying to be nice to people to get brownie points with God. But I'm actually free to be a good father, mother, citizen, ruler, whatever, you know. And it's just a beautiful, freeing thing. And that's why we always got to return to, you know, the clear words of whether you go to Saint Paul, you know you've been saved by grace, not by work, so that no one can boast, or whether Jesus talking about this is a gift, and that's what grace is. It's not like a supernatural power that's put into you so you can become holy. Those are effects of it, but no, grace fundamentally is a gift. And the Heavenly Father, our father, has given us Jesus Christ, and he's a tone for the world, and he's given us his gift of forgiveness, and now we're his. So now we are free to live like it and knowing that means those peaks and valleys go away. Like Paul says, I've learned how to suffer everything, poverty, riches, persecution, good times, bad times. And that's what's so sad about where I think a lot of churches fail. You get on spiritual highs and it's a roller coaster instead of sticking to your meat and potatoes, which is the grace of God, and your feelings and your emotions might not be there yet, and they might fade and they come and go. C. S. Lewis likes to talk about the spiritual life is like going up and down on waves, but you've got to remember where you're headed. So you're grounded, like on the rock with the anchor, and that's Christ and his grace. I think that's an absolutely beautiful message. I could probably talk to you for a whole lot longer, but uh, you know, I want to be cognizant of your time, and even in the audience, I know this is a little bit of a longer show, so I'll just encourage everyone to explore, uh you know, and this may not be you know, the denomination for you and I believe and you can certainly weigh in on this, but I believe denominations exist because of personalities, and you know, I don't think the Lutherans would say, if you're not a Lutheran, then you're not going to heaven. I think that's rather obvious. But for me, this has been just all inspiring for me to to start this journey and I'm looking forward to learning more about it. So, Pastor Ramirez, I thank you for your time. I'm going to bring up the website one more time, Saint Paul, Oh, go ahead, sir. If I could just add one thing you mentioned if if people want to learn more about it, where I would start is the Small Catechism, and it's it's online. You just google Small Catechism. You can find the Book of Concord. That's what we believe teaching confess. But the Small Catechism is just point by point, very very simple and clear. And I'll hold one up. This is this is a Small Catechism. Just the beginning is the Small Catechism and then there's more explanation in the back that our that our church body does. I like the blue version. I think that's the best one. But yeah, I would tell people read the Small Catechism. The Small Catechism is the shortest little explanation of the faith that I think is just fantastic. Yep, And Chris has brought up the l c MS. I think it's the website. I can't releast read that from here, but I believe that there is a link to the Small Catechism on that. I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is. Yeah, excellent. Well, I'm going to once a share the website Saint paul'sug dot org if anybody would like to get in contact with Pastor Ramirez. As you can see, he's a great guy to talk to and accessible. I emailed him about bringing him on the show and he responded right away, So I mean, don't if you inundate him, you know, it might take him a little bit. But yeah, please explore what Lutheranism is all about. And Pastor Ramirez, I just thank you so much for your time here on Church and State. Well, thanks for having me on. Anytime you want to talk to skim me a call. Excellent. I will do that, And I'm gonna go ahead and close this out if you'd hold on just one more minute. Post production to Sarah goodbyes. I'd appreciate it, but once again, yeah, thank you. All right, there you are, ladies and gentlemen. What is Lutheranism? And I hope you've enjoyed this spiritual journey with me and my guest. But you know, even though you know I've been more in that camp of Pentecostalism. 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