Phoenix Survival w/ Matt Deal from Goldback

It's taking its sweet time. There we go. We're live. We are, and the intro did not take, so let me get that out. Who needs an intro, right, at this point? Oh, no, it's there. It just did not. Oh! You're listening to PBN. Your path back to stability here. It has been a tech chaos day for me here at Phoenix Survival. I'm so sorry, everybody who got our faces first before the intro. Seems like what can, will, and AI has it out for us, apparently, especially after my anti-AI conversation the other day with James. I don't believe it. Yeah, so everybody wanted to welcome back again Mr. Matt Dill. He is our West Coast Regional Manager. No, Director. My apologies. Misspoke your title. Oh, good. Yeah, I just basically sell Goldbacks in the whole western half of the country. So I started out in Texas, then did Florida, started to build out part of the southeast in Georgia. Then I got the chance to move back to our headquarters. We're based in Utah and took over the northwest. And then northwest has grown to the entire west, everything west of Utah. Now I'm running. B. I'm sorry. Oh, don't get stung. I hope you have an EpiPen. EpiPen, honey. Seems like basic survival. I'm not allergic. Oh, I carry EpiPen. I'm not allergic to bees, but I have to tell you, after all this, the incident I had with a murder hornet. Wait, you have those out there? Yes. Yeah, we do, unfortunately. And I have been stung, and it is gnarly. I'd almost rather be stung by a cow killer than a murder hornet. I. So I've never encountered one of those. Thank goodness. They are ginormous. Like they were bigger. My, my old man has giant hands and they were bigger. It was bigger than his thumb. That's insane. That's terrifying. I'm not a fan of, I love my honeybees, you know, of course, like don't we all, cause we like being alive and surviving, but yellow jackets, Hornets, God forbid a murder Hornet. No, thanks. Yeah, no, it's not fun. And for those of you who are streaming, feel free to jump into chat, ask questions. We are going to be talking about our favorite new currency in the bullion and precious metal world. And yes, I have mine in sleeves because I haven't gotten the wallet yet, is gold bags. And it is actual gold. Would you mind just breaking that down a little bit on it? Yeah, absolutely. So what we've done with gold bags, is we have perfected vacuum deposition technology to where we can essentially heat up gold into like a ball of plasma and then shoot the gold, the 24 karat gold electrons or atoms. We actually shoot those directly onto a polymer or think plastic. And then that's how we create bills like the one she showed or this new one that came out this year since the last time I was on the podcast, which is one four thousandth of. An ounce of gold. So, you know, those of you who I imagine follow the gold price, that's about a dollar's worth of gold. And because we've systematized it the way we have, there's a network effect and utility value. So they trade and spend at double the spot price of gold at any given time. So this tiny new quarter that came out, which is the smallest mass produced unit of gold ever created, one four thousandth of an ounce. Again, this trades and spends for a little over two dollars today. So we've really, we've broken it down so that you can carry tiny bits of gold that make it super easy to exchange and spend. So that's one thing too, that, you know, in the, in the six or I guess eight months or so since we last spoke the merchant network has expanded to 6,000 plus, you know, mostly mom and pop businesses across the country where you can walk in and they give you the spot price times two for these bad boys and make it really easy, you know? So I think Since we spoke last, I went down to, you know, I'm fortunate to live in Utah, which is the epicenter for, you know, the gold back community. So I have five ACE hardwares that take them. So I bought my lawnmower this year using real 24 karat gold, which is pretty cool. So, and I know because of the, you know, the market value of gold having gone up, isn't that also part of the reason the quarter gold back came out? Because it was more investment friendly as far as cost. And I'm just going to show a comparative example. From the last time, the smallest bill was a half gold bag to a quarter gold bag. And for those of you who aren't familiar, it does say on here one four thousandths, one two thousandths. And so I think the largest bill, though, unfortunately, I have yet. I eventually do plan to have bigger is a ten gold. Yeah. And so the ten, of course, you know, it has what one one hundredth of an ounce of gold. And we make them as large as. One tenth of an ounce. And so that one, you know, basic math today, that's about what? Four hundred and fifteen dollars worth of gold. So it'll trade and spend at eight hundred and thirty dollars for the big one hundreds. We actually did. We have discontinued those since I last spoke. So really alive. Yeah, because we're really all about trying to democratize gold ownership. We want to make it so that more people, that anybody can have access to real gold and be able to utilize that for everyday purchases. Now, most people today aren't walking around carrying $ 1, 000 in their pocket at any one time. But that's cool, though, because if any of your listeners do have the large 100s, they're very scarce. So there should be some collection. Collectible value or, you know, that adds on, adds in over the next couple of years. So personally I did, you know, try to buy a stack of the hundreds and I'm just putting them away in the back of my safe because I believe that, you know, since, you know, it varies by state, of course. So I don't know which ones you were showing. This is an Idaho quarter. Oh, I dropped it. Of course. Yeah. From my understanding, there's only four States right now for the quarter. Four States have quarters. Yeah. So that's, we've got Idaho, California, the new Utah's and, and Florida. So California is the only one I don't have. I have one of each of the three out of the four. So I do try to get my hands on some of the newer states, which I do have some of your limited collectors of the DC. The DC. You only printed, I. Think, 250,000 of these? Yes, 250,000 of those that we made for America's 250th birthday this year. which for those of you who don't know that they do come with their own security features. And unfortunately it doesn't show on camera the way it should, but I have a black light. And if you don't mind explaining these security features, because it's beautiful artwork that you don't even sometimes see on the bill itself. It's illuminated only under black light. Yeah, no. And so I'm glad you brought that up. So what we've done starting this year in 2026, so the DC was the first one to have it. We've got the black light, That's actually, we've got Blacklight ink in the artwork on the front. So there's little Easter eggs and hidden features. And so if you see that on your Goldback, that's one way of knowing it's real. In 2025, that's when we actually added the Blacklight technology as a security feature to begin with. But it was on the back and it was just a simple Latisse grid that would show, you know, the Goldback logo. And then it would have the denomination. So like in this case, it'd be one quarter as well as the technology copyright mark. But yeah, now this year we decided, heck, this is fun. Now we start putting it into the artwork. So there's hidden animals, all sorts of hidden little things on the front. That's just one security feature, of course, because they're all serialized. And so you can actually reach out to the manufacturer and say, hey, this one says AA21189. Did you guys even make that? So that's one security feature. Everything is hand drawn as well. So there's a whole bunch of what appear to be repeating patterns on the front. So like the ribbon that runs north south through the logo there, that's called a guilloche pattern. And that is actually hand drawn. And so it actually you'd be able to, you know, under careful inspection and magnifying glass, you can actually zoom in, see the imperfections to know that it's real. And so there's more than that, of course. But those are the kind of the main ones. Now, we've been out for seven years plus now. Of course, we're in 10 states plus some of our novelty projects like the Washington, D.C., like the Dallas Fort Worth one we did, as well as others. But we haven't seen anything that is a convincing fake yet. Now, knock on wood, of course, because as the gold price goes higher, we know that the Chinese will like to enter the game. But that's why you buy from, you know, don't buy on, I wouldn't buy on eBay personally. I wouldn't buy from, you know, Timu or Alibaba. Because what I have seen are these cardboard foils that, which are totally worthless. They're just novelties. The gold foils. Yeah. Gold foils. I can tell you, I mean, you might see them at coin shows listed for anywhere from two bucks to five bucks. I should have brought. Yes. And people, people collect them and people will pay money, not realizing it's not actual gold. It's just a card stock with. Exactly. And you could really feel the difference. This is more like I said, it's a, it's a patented polymer. It's plastic. Those are more like cardboard and they have everything from Donald Trump to Daffy Duck. So I got my grandma on Elvis one cause she likes Elvis. I have a Marine Corps one and a cabbage patch baby one. So there you go. Yeah. But, But this is to show, like, for example, this is, I had confirmed with him first before showing just in case, but this is one of your company manufactured several collector ones, actually, even. Yep. So we did both gold and silver Marilyn Monroe limited run pieces specifically for Atmex, who's one of our bigger customers. We've also done, you might've seen the silver Zombucks in the past. I was going to say the Zombucks. I see a lot of different silverbacks coming out too. So we just launched Hera, this silver, and this is a collectible as well. And so it's a little bit different than the goldback, which are designed as a currency to be spent and stacked. These are, we made 50,000 of her. And, again, she's the second part. So this is Hera. The first one was Hades, the god of war. And so we're doing a 12-part Greek pantheon, so 12 gods and goddesses. And this one just released Tuesday, so pretty cool. So those are in stores now. But, again, for preppers, these are not ideal. These are just a collectible. They're fun. Like that Marilyn Monroe she showed, also a collectible. It is fun, but it's not– It's not going to hold the same value. I mean, in a collector's end, yes. But as far as like, you know, using as currency, it's not like this. I did want to mention from when we had first spoken to recently, the amount of people here in North Carolina who are now accepting goldbacks has jumped exponentially. There was maybe only three places in the state. Now it's like over 30. Wow. No, that's fantastic. And, you know, it's probably testament to our Southeast sales rep. So he's based in the, I think he's in Rome, you know, he's in the greater Atlanta area, but I know he's been putting in a lot of miles and a lot of work in North Carolina, going to coin shows, you know, talking to business owners. And so kudos to him. And if you guys attend coin shows, maybe you'll run into him someday. His name is Brandon. I actually need to get your info so I can have it, see if we can get him to a camp event for like proper camp and the other events, because I actually was talking about this so much. I got the common sense prepper now involved in goldbacks. And so he'll send me pictures of, look at the ones I just got. And then it came up of, are there no goldbacks with males? And I said, no, actually the Dallas one is the only goldback that features a male cowboy on it versus all the other goldbacks are females. Well, and so the females always stand, you know, first and foremost, but I will say, I think on the Oklahoma 100 in the, in the foreground there, like on the, on the bottom beneath the lady, there's actually a highly decorated world war two. Um, yeah. And so they were from Oklahoma. I think they were Oklahoma national guard before they got called up and then sent over where they were. Again, they won so many awards and won so many battles for us in world war two. So there's men there, um, I can tell you, so we've, I guess this is public, we've announced it. So in January, we're launching Colorado. That's going to be the next state to have a, you know, next new state that we'll be doing. And there's another highly decorated, the famous 10th Mountain Division is featured on one of the notes. Again, behind the female, but it's just pretty cool because, you know, if anybody ex-military, you know, the exploits and, you know, the feats that the 10th Mountain Division, you the 30,000 foot view is that they, you know, trained up on skis and they went over to the, to the Alps and fought the Nazis, which is pretty cool. Right. So, yeah, no, I think it's phenomenal. And I love what your company does. And also to let folks know that y'all don't actually sell these outright yet. People can choose to become a, a vendor or go through companies that sell for you. Correct. Exactly. Yeah. So we're a wholesaler. That's kind of the model that we wanted to run with. We wanted to kind of put them in the hands of as many coin like local coin shops as possible, you know, because as a local currency ourselves, we really believe in buy local, spend local. That's a huge part of everything that we're about. You know, and I'm sure many of your listeners are, too, when you can avoid shopping at Amazon and Walmart and you can support the local general general store, the local farmer's market. You know, that's something we want to keep that money as much of our money into our inside of our communities as possible rather than send it to the bankers in New York or what have you. Exactly. I mean, even at like shows or events I go to, I have a picture frame that states barter and trade gold that's at value, which I actually have the gold back app and which it will show you what the current trade value or value of a whole gold back is the baseline value. but it will tell you, you can type in what the total is and it will calculate what total you need in gold back to equivalent to that cost. So I would love to have that app. And many people ask this, so I just want to cover it. So it'll also tell you how much US dollar or fiat change is owed in the event that there's change, right? Because it wouldn't be as, you know, it's not a perfect system. You know, this is the smallest bill being about two bucks. So it'll tell you if you owe somebody 83 cents and you can, you know, use that. the Uncle Sam funny money on top to make it right. And it does make it a lot more friendly in the sense that, hey, your cost is this. And it does give you, yes, the cash in versus the gold back. But I love that app. So that is something I have integrated into my systems when I'm setting up or selling. And then that way people can see, oh, well, what's a gold back? And then I use it as an educational moment of showing them what a gold back is and then breaking down the app. And it's like, it's addictive. I'm not going to lie. I love bullion before, but gold backs is, I feel like definitely a new highway for the money end of it. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, there's something in economics called Grantham's law, which basically says that people will, if you have two competing currencies, you want to get rid of the less valuable one or the one that's declining in value fastest. Right. So obviously if you've got a bunch of cash in your wallet, you know, it makes sense to spend that cash. But if you do what I do is you fill your wallet with the gold. And so then you can participate when, you know, as the inflation happens, the gold price goes up. Obviously we have, you know, dips and valleys like we're experiencing right now. It's, you know, anybody who follows gold is down significantly from late January when it peaked. But again, if you just zoom out and have the patience to, you know, you zoom out 25 years, zoom out 75 years, it's always going up into the right as our country, you know, continues to print money into oblivion. And so I keep as much of my, you know, spending power as I can outside of my other pool of investments in these goldbacks. And so then I just, you know, frequent the people in my community, like my local farmer, like the aforementioned, you know, ACE hardware store, I go and they get my business and services and, And for them, if you're a business owner listening to this, one of the big concerns I hear is, well, oh my gosh, if I get flooded with goldbacks, how do I pay my rent or how do I pay my electricity bill? And what I would tell you, and it's the same thing I always tell these guys, is that that would be great for us at Goldback if that happened. But the reality is it's going to be probably less than 1% of customers coming in. And the majority of those customers wouldn't have found you And gone and utilized your goods and services if it weren't for the fact that they found you on the map of people accepting goldbacks in their area. And so there's tons of goldback. You know, it's a very active community. And there's people who when they're road tripping across the country, the first place they go is they go to the map, either on the website or inside the app. And they say, hey, where can I spend these things? So you'll meet cool people that are very much, you know, like-minded who will, um, want to frequent your business. Um, you know, and I think I probably use this, use this example when we spoke last, but, you know, I talked to people, chiropractor is my favorite example, because if you're a chiropractor, you know, and your calendar is not full, you have a few extra hours in the week. Um, you know, it's hard for most people, unless you have friends or family or someone to go to church with that is a chiropractor. You just go, you pop on Google and you say, okay, I. Got a back issue, you know, I'm just going to find the first person with good reviews and go use them. A Goldback customer is going to say, OK, I'm going to use the guy taking Goldbacks near me. And so now you filled an extra half hour or hour of your calendar. You got a new customer. Hopefully that keeps coming back. And versus when you might have just been sitting around, you know, twiddling your thumbs because your calendar wasn't full. So it's really is just I'd rather work and. get paid in some goldbacks than not work at all or have that extra customer where I get paid in goldbacks versus that customer goes down the street to Walmart. I, and I agree with you. I actually am trying to work on my local little produce stand. He's interested in gold and silver. And then I started showing him the goldbacks. Now that when I go in, he'll be like any new goldbacks and what do they do? He loves that. I keep the black light and I now have to carry black light on me for it. But it's, it's to show people. So this is, One one-thousandth. It's a one gold back, which is roughly, what, $ 8? $ 8. 31. Yeah, $ 8. 31. And of course, that fluctuates with the price of gold. It does. So you've got this, which is money in your pocket. And then you have these, which is one one thousandth, which is collectors. But it is this tiny film that if I were to open this up and tear it, it is tiny. just torn gold versus something that I can trade in, which also your company or anyone who partners with you, if you have a gold back that's torn or damaged, we can actually send it in and trade it out, which means we can still have good currency. Yep. As long as the gold's all still there, we'll just take it. We'll melt it down on our end, but we'll give you like for like. So if you send in a 50 or 100, you're going to get 50 or 100 gold backs back. And that's just kind of built into the premium. And that's one thing too. So the piece of gold that you just held up, the non-gold back, you said that was a 1,000th as well? It is. Okay. Well, when I look at Atmex, because I've, you know, being in the space, I'm constantly looking at what other, you know, fractional gold currencies are doing or fractional gold bullion is doing. Little cards like that, that have the same amount of gold, the 1,000th. If you look on Atmex, the cheapest one is around 24 bucks. And so a lot of people say, oh, I don't like the premium on the gold back. Well, If ours won $ 1, 000, it's $ 8. 30. And the other one's $ 24. $ 8. 30 sounds a lot better than $ 24, $ 26, $ 27. And this is. A full gram. That's a full gram. So, of course, that's a different system. Right. Because we're in the thousands of ounces. Right. But it does just go to show the gold value. you're going to spend a high premium on this because one, it's a collector's more than anything than it is a currency. So I don't think I ever seen below 35 in a lot of spaces versus currency in your hand that you're paying anywhere from exactly where it's at to what, $ 2, $ 3 more than its actual spot or its value, which still $ 10 for a single gold bag versus $ 35 for the same exact quantity makes it, it's easier to obtain this to get to a one gram in these than it is in a one gram itself. Absolutely. And I mean, the biggest thing too, my favorite part about it is, you know, cause I collect larger, you know, gold as well, say one ounce maples or one ounce cougar ants or eagles. When I grow up, I'll be able to, but right now I'm the closest I can get to it. But the only reason I bring it up is because say gold price goes up 50 percent. Right. And let's use round numbers. So right now it's say it's 4000 and it goes up to 6000 bucks. And then I say, OK, or my car breaks down and I want to get some cash out. Well, the only way to do that is to go down to the local coin shop and he has to keep his lights on. So he's going to give me some percentage back of the spot price of the gold. So even though gold is. At $ 6, 000, maybe he gives me $ 5, 800 for that piece that day, right? And so I have to lose that little transaction cost. And with goldbacks, I just go buy the things I was already buying and I capture 100% of the value. Because if gold goes up 50%, the goldback will also go up 50%. And so, like I said, I just go down to Ace Hardware. I buy some Christmas decorations or whatever it is I'm needing that day, fertilizer, and I get full value. And then we just keep the gold circulating that way. Yeah, no, absolutely. But no, you're correct. Because, for example, you know, these shops are going to make, you know, they have to, like you said, make money as well as they're not going to give you what spot is. You're not going to be able to go into any sort of coin and silver and get something at spot. You're going to pay above spot when you buy it and you're going to get below spot when you sell it. So for example, when silver, which silver is sitting very sad right now, which breaks my heart a little bit, but I mean, metal's going to fluctuate. always, all day long. But silver was at 65. Say I went in to sell at 65, I'd be lucky if I could get it sold for 60 an ounce. So, I mean, it's one of those things you have to realize there is a loss. And you holding on to this, though, especially even in a barter and trade system, you're going to hold its value, especially if it's being used as currency. Yep. And so that's the spread that we're talking about. And so there's really no. As long as you have places off ramps, and that's what we're working really, really hard. So we hired two people in-house that are traveling around the country all the time, signing up more merchants, just getting the word out. And we have 1,300 people in what's called our Guild Network, G-I-L-D. And those are volunteers that are doing the same thing. So they're just going around to farmers markets on the weekends and they're just evangelizing the Goldback mission. And so it's been great. That's why we've seen just in the last two years, We had about 1,000 merchants two years ago, and now we're at north of 6,000. And so I fully expect over the course of the next year that we'll easily surpass 10,000. And the sky's the limit. And watching it actually become a legal currency in certain states, especially Florida and other states recognizing it, It really shows the full potential because as we know in this economy, we watch the market. You and I probably watch it more than we do anything else because we don't watch TV, but we do watch the markets. And the American dollar itself has just is losing its value overall because there's not the gold backing anymore. There's not that standard. And at least with this is I know regardless of where the market is, it still has value. It's going to always have value, whether it's gold, silver, diamonds. We're seeing a huge increase in copper and people are saying that copper may be the new silver in it, but it's the gold never changes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and, you know, if you look over the last five, 10 years, similar to the copper story. the world is lacking in exploration for both of those metals. So where there is a shortage on the horizon coming for both. There haven't been any large new discoveries of gold mines. And copper story is a little bit different, but it's the same thing. I mean, if you look out 10 years, especially if this AI build-out stuff and data center build-out continues to go at the pace that it is, and that's a different story or conversation if you think. It will or will not. But regardless, The world is seeing a shortage in all of these metals. And so I think it's about the safest place to be, especially with all of the, you know, all the stuff happening right now in the world. I don't know if you've done any shows on the Iran situation of late, but really the Iran situation is starting to make a lot of countries have less faith in the dollar and the U.S. Treasury, the U.S. Bond. That's why we've seen over the last two months, really the last six, eight months since this war began, we've seen treasury yields start to blow out. If you look at. The 10-year, around 5.3%, 30-year, even higher than that. A lot of countries, like if you're Saudi Arabia right now, you've been paying into the petrodollar system and buying all of our bonds for the better part of, what, 70 years? And now we're not really defending them from the Houthi attacks, and so they're not interested. And if they're unable to sell their oil, they're going to have to sell U.S. Treasuries And what does that do? It makes the yields go higher on existing treasuries and on newly minted, I should say, treasury notes. And that just makes the dollar go down even faster. And so I think. The like the metal market and then the dollar market, I feel like they correlate in in in ways that when you see certain metals drop, it's kind of a precursor to what's going to happen to the dollar before everything else jumps back up because it's going to hold so much more exponential value than the dollar itself. Yeah. I honestly feel like we're living in upside down world where we're at this new middle Eastern war front, you know, who knows how long I don't have a crystal ball. I wish I did, but who knows how long it's going to go. And when there's uncertainty, you'd think gold and silver prices would be through the roof, but instead they've, you know, people have been forced to sell it. their gold and silver to pay for other things. And so I think that it'll come back around. And the 5,600 gold that we kind of barely touched in late January, I think that's going to long-term look like a blip on the radar when gold is north of 10,000. Exactly. And the same thing happened with silver hitting almost 170 and then people selling all at once. And it's like, I understood the, you know, the whole factor of it, but I knew at some point it's going to peak, it's going to drop right now. I think silver is... back up to $ 57, which, you know, it always hits a low where it then stays steady before it increases, which is funny as some of the stuff we're covering on has actually covering some of these questions. It's the only reason I didn't jump to them because for example, so when high rates backfire, can rates stay high enough to hurt gold, but also destabilize banks, debit markets, or government finances enough to eventually make gold more attractive. And I feel like we're actually covering all that right now. Yeah, we're kind of hitting the high notes on that. I think that's a fantastic question. It really shows that whoever asked it is thinking about these things in depth. And so short term right now, a lot of people think about it. Especially a lot of older folks that want stability in their portfolio. They're saying, wait a second, I can get 5.3% for the next 10 years in my portfolio. So I don't need the volatility and risk associated with gold or silver. But I think that that's actually... mistake and what. They're doing is they're well yeah i just think they're i think they're downplaying uh the the real true rate of inflation and so 5.3 percent might sound great and i guess according to the it's beating the official government cpi number which just came out at 3.7 which is pretty dang high third highest reading in the last three years um yeah i think that if you look at the cost of the things that we buy on a daily basis whether it's um gas to put in our car jeez you know, basic foodstuffs, they're all going up. And they truly haven't seen the effects of the fertilizer shortage that will be affecting next year's crops as the straight-of-form use was shut down. And so I. Think the people that are selling their gold and silver right now to go into the bonds, they're going to be kicking themselves long run. And so that will get sorted out. It might just take a little bit longer than we're comfortable with. Right. No, I agree with you there because I'm one of those, you said the fertilizer shortages, which a lot of people I mentioned on a previous show didn't know that black cow got bought out by the same company who owns Miracle-Gro and Bonnie Plants. So now your black cow is no longer going to be the same thing. So now it's looking for local farmers who are fine with selling their barnyard manure. And if you've noticed, I actually bought some Bonnie Plants this year. that did not get any bigger than this and state that the entire season did not produce flowered, but never grew anything. And I've had several friends record it. So we're going to see an even harder thing on not only like food production on a mass level, but even on the individual level, if you're not, if you're not considering, are you growing heirloom? Are you sourcing locally? I mean, it, it affects everything, which kind of, I wanted to jump, sorry, I didn't mean to digress on that, but when inflation and interest rates are both high, which matters more for gold, raising prices or high real yields? Yeah, I think what we're seeing right now is that the yields are mattering more, right? Because again, it's, it's siphoning off a lot of that demand for the gold. But what we're, We're existing right now in a paradigm where I believe there's a paradigm shift. So for the better part of the last 40 plus years, we were in a declining interest rate environment. So, yes, there might have been some short term blips where it went up. But just zoom out on the chart. It was just down, down, down to zero and even into, you know, real negative rates or excuse me, negative real rates. And so I think that now it looks like we're going to be in a persistent high yield environment when people figure out what. That means for the economy. what that means for the stock. Market and actual cash flow for these companies, I think then that will send people to saying, oh, it is different this time. I guess that's famous last words in the investing world. Right, right. But I do believe we're seeing a structural change that most investors haven't seen, unless you've been doing this a very long time. So you'd have to be basically 65 plus years old. To have lived in a world with, with, with, with those different types of a different rate environment. Well, I mean, even just as I don't, I don't think people realize how much in a whole everything is has changed so dramatically. You know, we had the house crisis, we had market crisis, but now I don't think they're realizing it's actually all right now. We're having a, you know, the housing crisis is building as, the financial crisis and the food and everything. It's like, it's, I don't think people realize how entangled they really are until everything just kind of flat lines or peaks out all at the same time. And I was like, I think we're starting to see that with everything just across the board. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, to get back to the, the user question, I think the re the reason that it's different. So, and I'm, I'm glad you mentioned the housing crisis of 08, right? What's fundamentally different this time and why yields, in my view, are more important is the United States of America's debt to GDP ratio. I don't have the exact numbers off the top of my head, but we have absolutely printed money for the last 18 years. And so now the debt service requirement is just through the roof. And what do higher yields do? Well, it means that the percentage of taxes and or money being printed has to just be that much more just to service the debt that we owe to these other nations, you know, to whoever. And so that's why, in my view, the yields are the bigger problem. And golly, I think I might sound like a doom and gloomer, but I just keep stacking my gold. Maybe I'm wrong. I would love to be wrong. No, I don't think you're wrong. I would rather, so it's, It's better to have than not need than need and not have is how I grew up growing up very poor, growing up hungry. Truth be told, you know, we hit a very hard time at one point where I had to sell some of my silver. But that's what it was there for was a insurance policy of its own, which we mentioned previously of it being insurance, being an investment in my family. and our future. And, you know, yes, it sucked to sell, you know, close to $ 600 worth of silver, but that's $ 600 made a big difference between a hard month easier or an absolutely devastating month, even harder. So, you know, that's one of those things. My, my partner is a blue collared worker. We had weeks of rain. Guess what? Weeks of rain means no work. you know, one income on a dual income household can be, you know, feast or famine. Now, yes. Were we good on food? Yes. I mean, I make sure food's always in the house, but sometimes the, the, the wolves knocking on the door don't want food. They want money. You know, you've got your car note, you've got your food, your, your electric bill, you've got your gas every week, you know, but that's what it's there for. And, I told him, hey, we're selling this, but I'm going to get that back. And he goes, absolutely. But I would rather sell my silver and gold. I'm going to hold on to gold as long as possible, but I'd rather sell my silver before I sell guns or anything else. And that's what it's there. It's an investment metal for your family. And so- why not invest in a way to be able to have an income? Because God forbid something happens to me, at least my family still has some sort of financial backing because banks aren't guaranteed. I mean, what did we see? What was it in China or Korea where the banks collapsed and then people were just out of money everywhere? Yeah, that was China. Yeah. And Mentioning Korea, look at what's happening in Korea. As of last week, it was down. The stock market there, the KOSPI was down 35 percent from its high earlier this year. And, you know, I've been looking at other things this week, but some people made mention in one of my, you know, one of my group chats that KOSPI got hit even harder this week to where the president is advising. He's basically trying to tell the Korean people, please, you don't. life is worth living. Don't don't go do anything that you can't undo. And so, you know, it's probably down. I have to assume by the president tweeting that, that it must be down 40 plus percent. I think that we aren't too far from another. You know, 08 and God forbid 1929 type type situation with our own stock market. And if that happens, well, there will be, you know, a short term blip in these metals. They can definitely go lower, but then if history is our guide, the gold people will flood in for safety with whatever they have left into gold and silver. And so we'll be much better off, you know, in the aftermath of such an event by owning. Right. And at least this way, I feel like, yes, I still have a bank account. Yes, I still have a savings. I'm not telling people to get rid of their 401ks or their Roths or their IRAs or whatever it is that they have going on. But at the same time, have a secondary investment because if one collapses, you have another one to fall back onto. It's kind of like those adage, don't count your eggs before they hatch and don't put all of them in the same basket. So it's that same thing. Now, I did have a question here. Sorry, I have a separate chat. So if you keep seeing me look down, how far do you see gold and silver ever dropping? And this kind of goes with the second question that came up after is, Do you see gold ever going under 3000 and silver under 45 anytime soon in your personal opinion? Yeah. Again, so just personal opinion, not financial advice, but I don't, I don't. Yeah. So I really. Thought 3,700 ish would be the low for gold in this near term environment. And then that would put the, the equivalent silver at the time based on the gold silver ratio, I was seeing it, you know, around 48 being the low. Now, it would hurt a lot if it, you know, I guess just on paper, my paper losses would be terrible if it does get, it does in fact go that low. But that's about as low as I see it. So I don't think 3000 is back on ever in our lifetime. Quite frankly. Yeah. I think so far, I think the lowest I've seen it drop briefly was 52, 53. And then for, uh, for gold, for silver, silver, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. For gold. Um, I, I haven't seen it go below four. So I think it, I think a couple of months ago it was, it barely made it down into the 3,900, the high 39s. And I was prepared to back up the truck if it did go below 3,800. Of course that time it didn't. Yeah. Cause we, we do have that saying in this house, if it hits a specific number, we're just investing in it because only because one, it makes it more obtainable, but two, because the market will always raise back up. It may take, A month, it may take 10 years, but at some point the market will always go back up in its value because regardless of where the paper dollar goes, like I said earlier, gold and silver will always hold a higher value because of just what it is. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one thing I was looking at, I think last week was the Big Mac index, right? And so I want to say 50 years ago, you could get around 125 Big Macs for an ounce of gold. And now the number is 600 plus. And so that just shows you, you know, if purchasing power parity, if it was all equal, it'd be the same number of Big Macs for your ounce of gold. But instead, you're getting five, six times more now. So that just shows the staying power of the gold. And there's many different, you know, indices and little tools that people have created. But one is like the amount of house that you could get or how many ounces of gold it takes to buy a house. And I think that one same thing takes far fewer ounces of gold now to buy to buy a house. Absolutely. But that was also so this is just not even on this one. Someone had asked me previously, what would you. So, you know, you always hear that saying that a house with. Ten ounces of gold and so many ounces of silver is sitting in a pretty economics, you know, even when the economy that is sitting at a good financial end. Do you have what you think it should be a minimum in a household if you're going to stock gold or silver or even the goldbacks, a certain quantity? You're asking me personally? I mean, I could never have enough. I definitely need more silver. You know, being like a prepper in our household, I have a minimum amount of canned goods I keep in the house. I have a minimum amount of value of gold or silver I think one should have in their household. What do you have your own minimum value for? I think that probably 200 ounces of silver, like in case the banking system collapses, the Chinese EMP goes off and, you know, some electronics really don't work. I would want to have 200 ounces of silver and I would say probably 200 goldbacks on top of that. And I would want my goldbacks to be mostly quarters, halves and ones. So the smaller denominations, you know, I mean, it's kind of a matter of if you're bugging out, if you're truly bugging out, well, you don't want to take up too much backpack space with, you know, stacks and stacks of these little quarters. Right. Well, it's kind of like you're sober. You don't want just big bars because I have, don't get me wrong, which I will show if it's in here. I grabbed some of my stuff so I could just reference it. Oh, no, it's not in this one, which is fine. Oh, here we go. So a 10-ounce. Yeah. I love my 10-ounce bars, but I always have to think, okay, what am I going to be buying that at current price is 700– call it 600 bucks. Right. In the event that stuff goes south quick, that $ 600 bar, I mean, it was only– what, nine months ago that that was. A $ 1, 200 bar. I could see that being a $ 2, 500 bar. And so at that point. If it is worth $ 2, 500 for that bar, well, that's tough when you're just trying to get a gallon of gas or a loaf of bread or whatever it is that you're in a barter situation. And so, yeah, it's constantly that push and pull between weight, ease to carry and ease to spend. Right. Cause there's a one ounce piece of silver, you know, two ounces, you've got 10 grams. And that's one of those things where I do have a lot more fractionals because in the barter and trade end, I'd rather let loose a fractional than lose my larger quantity of silver. That's going to hold the higher value. And I agree with that on the, the halves, the quarters and the ones. Cause I, I do have, like I said, I do have one of the higher, you know, I have a two, a five, a 10. And that was what I could afford at the time. So I don't advise anyone kill yourself, but when you can, like I have, I have my own little fun money or my own hobby money. And so that is one of those things when I can afford, I'd be like, okay, I'm saving up for this bill. And more or less the 10 was just to be like, I have a 10. I didn't think it was obtainable. I got it at a good price and then the market fluctuates. So sometimes you feel, oh, but I don't regret it even regardless of if the market was high or low. Well, no, a 10 is also not bad. I mean, right now it's 83 bucks, right? You can go spend 83 bucks. Well, there's lots of things in my everyday life for me and my family. Like if I'm going to the, to the farmer's market and I'm going to go to my meat guy, I'm going to spend 83 plus dollars. That's fine for one transaction. I'd rather give that person a 10 than a, 40 quarters right now we're counting 40 quarters out but so it's just you know different situations different environments call for different use cases right. But you don't but the good thing to have in the smaller is is you're not showing your entire hand on your larger quantity i mean how many books or movies have we had where someone pulls out a handful of one ounce silvers and it's like you screwed yourself right there bud. You know because now i'm sticking you up and i'm. So here we go. I'm going to jump to, I've got another question of spot versus physical, which we covered a little bit earlier, but why can spot prices fall sharply while local shops can barely cut prices because inventory is tight and replacement costs stay high? Trying to get to what they're asking. Yeah. So why can spot prices fall sharply while while local shops can barely cut their prices. Is this due to the inventory being as tight and replacement costs stay high? So they're asking, is it relative to that? Yeah, no. So I think they kind of answered their own question. So if you're looking for confirmation, like absolutely. You know, this last couple of years, we've seen some very interesting, you know, we've seen different environments. We've seen environments where they're, I think in last fall, the refiners, you know, that normally buy up. So if you're a local coin shop, you know, everyone thinks that they're, you know, Mr. Moneybags or whatever, but oftentimes they don't have any supply of cash. So if everybody floods in selling all their silverware, for example, well, then the refiners can get backed up. And then the refiner, you know, it starts paying a lower and lower and lower percentage on what the spot price of gold is, right? Or silver in this case, right? And so we saw that in the fall. I've heard from my customers that we're still seeing some of that today. And so, and then of course, this is, you know, you probably always hear people in real estate say real estate is local. Oftentimes with in the bullion world, it's similar to where, you know, someone is having a hard time acquiring ASEs, say the mints out or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be. And so then they're going to, they're going to keep the prices high. And then, you know, you see the flip side though, as well. And so that's one thing. Right now, the current environment that we're in, I was just at a coin show in Denver this past week. And so I talked to a lot of these customers, a lot of coin shop owners. What we've seen is that versus two years ago, the spreads have just shifted back. And so by that, I mean, this is something that we touched on earlier. Right now, they might sell the silver right at spot. But if you're selling to them, they might pay a few dollars back of spot. And so those spreads, they can, you know, depending on different market conditions, they can widen, they can shrink, but then they can also move one way or the other around spot price. Yeah, so I see, like, for example, we have two shops, I say locally, relatively, and they're each in a different part of town. Sure. And one shop, regardless of what market is at. So, for example, if, say, Silverware... she stayed exponentially higher than where it was sitting at and said, it didn't matter what it dropped at. Even when, um, sober had hit like, you know, one, we'll say one 30, she was selling for one 60, but she was only buying at 60. So yeah. Yeah. But the other shop was only, was only a three to $ 5 difference in spot, whether you're buying or selling. And it's like, okay, well, this guy is honest and, and, Not that the other woman wasn't. It's just she knew her market because it was all the older people who didn't have anywhere else to go, didn't realize there is a second shop on the other side of town. And she could, you know, take it for cheap and sell it for high. And it was like, wow. So I watched that shop for a while. while, refusing to do any sales with them, asking, inquiring and realizing I don't want a 100% markup. Like I'm fine with paying three to five to depending on what it is, $ 10 more if it's a high premium, you get it, if not a little bit more. to all of a sudden. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, so obviously we want to shop local when we can. Um, but if the current conditions, you know, make it so that, I. Mean, I'm not going to say I haven't bought online, but I'm very particular. I shop around. I'm not, I'm not going to go where I think it's my only option because I know, um, and it's, it's not to bad mouth certain companies. AP, AP max sometimes has some great deals. And sometimes I think, they kind of inflate what the actual kit co market numbers are, which, you know, companies do that. You've got, um, Oh my God. I, I had a text. I get updates, SD bullion. You know, you've got different markets, finest known, finest known is great on their costs, but the shipping is where it gets you. So it's one of those, you've got to pick, you know, what's the lesser evil for you financially. Is it going to be cheaper to do it locally, which most local places aren't going to have gold backs. Um, I actually go through bear bullion quite a bit. I know he's, yeah, he's great people. You know, it's just one of those things is I go through different people depending on what it is I want, because one, I know it's going to be authentic because there's a lot of fakes out there and not just on the golden, but even on the silver end, we've seen it hit the auction sites, eBay. Unfortunately, people thought they're buying something and come find out it's just clad. That's been gilded. And the higher the prices go, the more of that floods the market, right? And so sadly, just the coin show last week into the weekend, you know, multiple people brought in silver that they thought that they were going to get, you know, good money for because they spent their hard-earned money on it. And, you know, we ran it under the XRF machines, the scanners that show exactly the elemental breakdown of what's inside. And just you hate to have to give that bad news to somebody and say, oh, man, I'm sorry. Unfortunately, it happens. And so that was something that I go now because I've made a good rapport with the shop that I do enjoy. Good company. Sometimes I just like to stand around and talk coin. But he will let me bring in whatever I get and test it. And I've only ran into what you really got to be careful with hand pours. This is just a warning to my listeners out there. And I've mentioned it before. Got a beautiful two ounce hand pourer. Do you find out it was more like nine to five plus. And if I were to sell it, I have to sell it as a, uh, it was more like a nine, nine. It was more like a nine, five, seven. Um, which yeah, I always just put as nine to five plus, um, because it was a higher, higher than Sterling, but lower than nine, nine, nine. Yeah. Which broke my heart because the person I got it from, I trust it, but he thought he could trust the person he got it from. which then I had to, you know, relay the message to him. Hey, you got a dirty poor and this poor is not, but this, which they're like, Oh, we'll buy it back. I'm like, you know, it's fine. I will get it off on my end. Cause it's not your fault. But it was one of those things where I got lucky, but I ran into plenty of people who are getting so many fakes that it is unrealistic. The amount of letter out there and people think they have genuine silver. And it's like, No, you have clad or even the fake PAMP bars that are now being sold in the in the assay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, the counterfeit technology has gotten so good that it's really, really tough to tell. And especially with the bigger bars, I've heard that, you know, again, from customers that on the big bars now, you know, they can have silver or gold on the outside, particularly with silver. And then the inside is, you know, chinesium, as we call it in the industry. It's just total nonsense inside. And so it can pass a lot of the standard testing. Some of them can pass the magnetic and the weight test, but without that actual scanner, you know, without the actual. The bigger the bar, you know, the scanners aren't really built to handle the big bars. And so that's why you're saying If you're taking a thousand ounce bar in the person should be cutting it open so they could actually see. That's how, you know, it's a good tester is when you see them actually cutting it to look at it and people are like, Oh my God, you're, you're ruining it. No, this is the only one of the correct ways to be able to verify that it is genuine. Like, yes, I understand it's damage in it, but you're not losing anything from it. If anything, because there's a reason why when you see in coin shops or pawn shops, if you take someone, a gold ring, you see them scraping it onto like a little piece of sandpaper because pure gold is soft, but it also leaves a certain, a certain residue that they do a chemical reaction test to see if it's actual gold. So they can tell if it's 24 carat or if it's 18 carat from those tests. So yeah, they're just, you know, they're doing a little CYA on their end before they offer a price. Right. And can't blame them for that. Any other questions? Yes. So premiums as a warning signal, when do large retail premiums stop being normal dealer economics and start signaling real physical scarcity? Oh man, that's a tough question. Golly. I mean, cause if you, so we think back to when the premiums, the premiums were pretty insane in January when we got to our all time highs and gold and silver were in the headlines, right? Like every financial, even, you know, normie news magazines were talking about gold. And I guess if we were, if we, you know, hindsight's 2020, maybe that was the sign we should. Have all sold. Right. Cause then a month later we could have bought back at half price on silver and 25% down on gold. Um, but so when it, I think that the, I think that. It's really, I don't have an answer on when to discern the difference between real scarcity and just the, you know, LCS, um, economy, them having a temporary or local shortage. I would say, though, that for silver in particular, the scarcity is real. I mean, the world is factually, just from industry numbers, we are utilizing and essentially burning up silver faster than we're pulling it out of the ground. And obviously, it's not burning up, but when we're putting it in electronics or putting it in solar panels, it's still there, but it's off the market. And so I think Since I haven't seen anything in the last few years. Well, and certain countries stop putting out any gold and silver. Look, China stopped actually any exportation of any additional gold or silver from their economy during that January up. Like they were not pushing out any more precious metals. So nine months later, are they still doing that? You know what? I need to check on that. But I felt like the last I had heard, they had held off on any more, which meant they were trying to hold as much as they could. But I feel like on this question, just on my end, when we see the scarcity in the sense of, say, the economy jumps in the market value, Well, there hits a point and I'm sure you guessed it too, is when gold and silver hit a high in which everyone's selling, it's going to cause a hard drop because then it's oversaturated. And now, now it's scarce. Oh, you know, now it's in abundance and then it's going to become more scarce as it goes higher because of, then it's going to be over, over flooded again. I mean, we, it's, it's in its own reputation, uh, repetition, because I, I feel like I knew as soon as they started selling and it started hitting a hundred and, you know, over 170 for sober is like, yeah, it's going to, it's going to crash because it's oversaturated. Yeah. Um, but I like to try to, at least I think I like to try to follow the smart money, right? So oftentimes it's referred to as the hedge funds. They're not always smart. always not always smart. Really, I think what we've seen over the last year is the more gold goes down, the more that China and other sovereign banks are buying. So the countries that didn't have to sell. Their gold to be able to afford more expensive crude oil to run their economy have all been stacking and stacking more and more and more. And so The Chinese are many things, but I believe they are wise. And I think that they are positioning themselves for what I think they're better at looking. Out long, long term time horizon. And so because of that. They're buying up gold and silver. They're like, oh, these Western countries want to get rid of it for cheap. It's a fire sale. Fine. I'll just buy more. Absolutely. And it hit a point where it did put a strain on the market enough, especially with electronics that now, you know, copper is jumping up because it's being used so much more, which copper is used predominantly in like medical gas lines in hospitals and dentistry, IUDs and medical care because it is a sterile metal. So is silver. We're seeing more of that. Gold is in computer components, which we throw how many of those computer components away that have it in there. And it's just one of those things to show that precious metal is used in such a way that we actually sell strongholds. on the digital market because of, you know, we sold so much of it and then it's not as accessible. So I feel like at that rate, we are going to see another incline because of the lack of. Well, absolutely. And something you mentioned, you know, with the electronics, especially, um, some of your users, if they probably already know this. Um, so everyone forgive me if this is like old hat for you, but those flock cameras that we all love, um, they have something like $ 400 at current prices of gold, silver, copper, and other rare earth metals inside them. So I'm just saying it would be a tragedy if all the flock cameras in your local communities were ripped down and you guys found a bunch of precious metals. We are seeing, um, a lot of communities actually now banning them. And I hope, I hope that continues to grow to go because, um, yeah, for, for those folks, yeah. Quit looking at catalytic converters and start looking at flocks. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, be a hero to your local community, leave the catalytic converters alone, let your neighbors in working order, but the cameras, I will look the other way all day. Um, not advice, but, Um, I think we pretty much covered it because it looks like the only, only thing I saw on here is if silver retails at 60 to 70 while spot is much lower, how much premium does the seller actually, we talked about that on how much they can get versus over what it's, what's, what it's actually marketed at. Um, and how much the individual, you know, when they sell, how much they get from it. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't ever expect to get full value. You know, you're always going to, when you're selling, you're going to get, you know, depends on the product, right? But five, 10%. But I do with this, I do expect it with this because I know, I know what I'm selling, what I'm buying or purchasing with, with what is the value. Absolutely. I'm going to get $ 8 and 30 cents worth of strawberries with one gold back. Right. They're not the little farmer's market lady is not going to say, okay, well I got to give you take 5% under. So, yeah, it's working in that regard. Which, you know, cash is king, but gold back is the new royalty, I promise. Yeah, I like that. Cash is king, but I mean, it's going to be worth less six months from now and even less. I mean, they stopped making a penny because it was costing three to five cents to make a one cent penny. Right. And so at what point do you hit the it's costing you more to make a dollar? To spend twice as much to buy food. I mean, I don't shop Walmart. I try to buy locally as much as possible. I refuse Walmart, especially with the smart tags. That's a whole nother show on its own. Let's see. I've gotten you tied up for an hour. I apologize. I know you have your normal daily duties. Is there anything that you would... recommend to our listeners or anything you want to address or anything you feel like that wasn't covered that you would like to speak on? Yeah, no. I mean, I mentioned that Colorado is coming out in January. Um, actually next week we have the Nevada, um, limited early release. So that's a collectible that comes out next week. And then in November, we're going to redo the Nevada. So Nevada was the second state that we came out with back in 2020. Um, So, you know, if you've looked at some of the new designs and the new denominations, we've come a long way. And so now we're relaunching and sometime in November, the Nevada series. So it'll have the quarter. It'll have the half. It'll have the two, which didn't exist, you know, way back in 2020. So that's on the horizon. We also we've announced Ohio. So Ohio should be coming out in either March or April, somewhere in that time frame. And then I expect two more states after that in twenty twenty seven. Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, if, uh, do you guys watch Homestead? I know you said you don't watch TV, which is fantastic. I have TV, but I have not seen Homestead and only because I know people who aren't preppers loved the movie, but I've had some friends who are preppers who felt like there was some inaccuracies on how a prepper would handle it. And so I have yet to watch it. I do plan on sitting down and watching it, but I heard from a friend who has similar tastes. It was a bit of a hard watch, which I'm not criticizing it because I actually love the main actor. He's one of my absolute favorites. So that's going to be the whole reason I watch it is I love his acting altogether. Yeah. Well, he's actually, so it's funny you mentioned that because he's actually a really good standup guy. I think he's, he's turned down multiple roles in Hollywood because of his loyalty to his wife. Yeah, he said, I will not kiss. I don't care if it's just acting. I think he said something like, these lips should belong to my wife. And that's why he played villains in all his movies because the villain never had to kiss anyone or have intimate scenes with other women because he said that anything in that nature is a, what did he say? It was not just immoral, but was a disrespect to his marriage and his spouse. And I was like, I mean, that was amazing. I think he actually had a moment where his wife got to be in something. He actually got to kiss her and film. Oh really? Yeah. So I was like, I would love to meet him. He's like my, my one actor along with, Oh God, I'm going to kick my butt, kick myself in the butt for not remembering his name. He was in all the left behind movies, like great actors. I don't know those. My bad. Oh, it's all right. It's a Christian based series of where everybody's, gone you know the the horns were blown. So my mom's left behind to me okay all right well the only reason i brought up homestead is because if you you know inaccuracies and you know bad uh for hope for prepping and homesteading though it may be uh there's going to be a lot more goldbacks featured in homestead over the next year or two which is kind of cool okay Um, but, uh, so there was that, that I wanted to share and, uh, for all more information on Goldback, uh, go to, you can go to goldback.com. Um, and we have a support email where you can ask questions, you know, if anything that's not answered on the website is there, you know, feel free to just shoot us a message and we're always happy to, uh, help people get started, point you in the right direction. And check it out because the website does also, like he mentioned, have the map. It has the value. There is an app where you can keep it on your phone and check it at the same time as well. I mean, why not? I mean, this is on its way of being the new currency. Yeah. And so you can also, there's applications there to sign up to sell goldbacks, if that's something you're interested in, as well as sign up to be on the map. So that's the big one. If you have a business, even if it's a side hustle, but if you're engaging in commerce and you want to accept Goldbacks, we make it real easy right there at goldback.com. Absolutely. I appreciate you so much. It's always a pleasure having you on here. It makes an hour feel like it's not anything. So I am going to ask you to stand by. And for my listeners, I appreciate you. I know this is not my normal Saturday time, but you know what? Here at PBN, we kind of just roll with it. Um, but I will be on our first thing early Saturday morning. Uh, as you know, I'm a homesteader. So you get to hear all of the grief on that. Elsewise, check out goldbacks.com or goldback.com. My apology. Yes, I know. I know that the Southern term wants to make it plural, but it's a goldback.com. Check it out. Look into it because I promise you it's an investment, not only in yourself, but your family and your future. And if the economy is as hard as it is, We don't want it to collapse, but ever in case there's a rainy day, at least you have a backup option. All right, folks. Take care. Have an amazing day. Thanks for having me.