Church & State -Peter D Johnston on Negotiating with Trump

Spokane Valley could become a sanctuary city. A different Houseman Caleb Collier says that this I'm proposing that the city of Spokane Valley issue a proclamation stating that our city is a Second Amendment sanctuary. Welcome to the fire. Today on Church and State negotiating with Trump with author Peter Johnston, hellocation Patriots, and welcome to Church and State, where we drive morality and religion over tolerance and apathy. And I'm your host, Caleb Callier, once again your favorite far right shock jock and the show that talks about politics and religion. Jesus Christ is our referee, so it's always nice and clean. Real quick, let's point you to the website Church and State dot media. Go here and fill out this registration form. Get our newsletter, which is full of useful information as well as a number of links to our episodes, and of course I personally call every single one of you who fills this out, so if you want to talk to me, there's your chance right there. 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Caleb, thank you so much for having me on. I'm looking forward to talking to you and your viewers' listeners. As I sir, this is such an interesting topic because Donald J. Trump, like love him, hate him, everybody would have to admit that the guy really does know how to negotiate. He really, he really does. He's got his strengths and I talk about those in negotiating with Trump, and he's got his weaknesses as all of us have our weaknesses. Without a doubt, you know, he's he's an interesting character. And your book is I've read some of it. I'm not completely dumb. With it yet, but I've read some parts of it and I've really been enjoying it so far. And one of the things that I really wanted to start with was Donald Trump is the person. You know, I think people were familiar with him, you know in some circles. You know, he'd had that appearance in Home Alone Too, for example, a few other movies I believe he was a part of as well. But really what brought him to America's attention was the show The Apprentice. The Apprentice was critical to Trump's rise, and by his own statements at the time, when he saw how the show was taking off, he said to Mark Burnett, the producer, Hey, maybe I can run for president. And that speaks to just how popular and significant that role was. Where it was pseudo reality, of course, because he presented himself a certain way, in a very favorable light, even though at the time in two thousand and four, he was undergoing one of his casinos going bankrupt. And yet Trump. Knew as a he's a promoter personality type, which I get into in the book under Myers Briggs, but he's ultimately one of the greatest promoters, and through The Apprentice created this image of himself that would he'd write on the coattails of the apprentice right into his second term in office. You know, I love that you bring in the Myers Briggs into this. I remember taking that personality test. I've always been fascinated by them. And you know, him being one of the bigger promoters, he always reminded me a little bit of a P. T. Barnum in a sense. And P. T. Barnum one of my favorite quotes from him was, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Do you see similarities between Donald Trump and somebody like P. T. Barnum, Well, I'll just speak to promoters in general. Like Barnum. You know, very fast on his feet, charming, sees in terms of negotiation, sees opportunities, and is willing to play the brinksmanship game right to the edge, as we've seen in Iran. That's all core to being a promoter, and Trump is very good at that. And also being flexible. You know, he's not bound by as promoters are not not bound by ideology. He's a pragmatist. He'll shift and frankly, you know, when we think about evangelicals and white evangelicals in particular, going back to twenty sixteen, we see that flexibility in pragmatism, where Trump had forty percent support among white evangelicals I think in twenty fifteen, and then suddenly sees Ted Cruz doing well in the primaries in twenty sixteen, winning a few states he would have liked to win. And what does he do. He says, got pragmatically. If I want my agenda to succeed and to be elected, I need white evangelicals on board. And so with he's able. To shift because he doesn't and I'm saying this respectfully, and you can push back, but he doesn't care as much about those beliefs, but he respects that you believe, you know, white evangelicals believe in them, So he can shift easily. And that's what promoters do, like Barnum, you know, in terms of their ability to move in the moment, read the room and set out in an entirely different direction, one that I would argue was critical to getting him elected in twenty sixteen and then twenty twenty four with the base of white evangelicals behind him. Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. You know, obviously it leads to some frustration because people will look at this, and they'll say, you know, this is a man who's kind of a chameleon. He kind of goes whichever direction he needs in order to get the end result, to get the negotiation, to close the deal, the Art of the Deal, as his own book is, And so it has led to a number of frustrations from certain people who feel like they've been betrayed and that he's not actually following through on some of his campaign promises or promises to specific groups. And I understand those frustrations. I think the president the downside of what I've just described in terms of being able to respond to the people is that he may be transactional in a lot of his relationships. And just to be clear, you've read the you know, the beginning of my book. I define negotiation as any time you're trying to influence someone to do something. So most of the time, lawyers, boardrooms are not involved. So so many people say, oh, I don't negotiate for a living, I don't need a book on negotiation. But if you were just trying to get your kids to bed last night, you know, when they're young, you know, it's a negotiation. One more book, dad, you know, and you can apply the lessons from dealing with Trump to dealing with your kids. And so the point of the reason I raised that is most of Trump where he excels are informal negotiations where there's not a formal contractor lawyers involved. It's backroom deals and it's deals with the people of the United States. And the President proved to be a master in terms of the electorate when he got himself elected twice and against the odds when you look back at twenty twenty one, in terms of what happened in twenty twenty four, and so those are he comes as a package, and his strength is being able to influence people in the moment, he got a lot of independence on board along with the right. But now that he's in office, you know, arguably he just doesn't need MAGA or evangelicals as much as he did to get elected. I would absolutely agree with that, And you kind of jump the shark on me because I do want to closer towards the end of the show. I want to talk about negotiating just as a practice with the kids, with the wife, friends, with your job, and we'll get into that, but I want to stay on Trump though, And you know, Trump did something really interesting in twenty twenty four that I think I think you'll be able to talk about as an expert. You know, we're all familiar with the rather infamous photograph of him as his as he's being brought into jail, right and he's got he's doing the lineup, and he took that picture and he he really hit the black community with it, which was really interesting. Uh, you know, the black community primarily will vote Democrat, but all of a sudden we got this this image of Trump, and the black community was like, this is a guy that I can get behind, and he started to negotiate with them, and we saw black voters turn towards Trump in record numbers. Well, what I can say to on on that front. And I don't know about the correlation between those two. I think there were obviously there were broader uh there's a broader contact in play. But where you know where that's Trump's flexibility. He goes, this is a bad situation. I've got a mug shot out there. What am I going to do with it? And he makes it, whether you like it or not, a work of art and one that plays to how he wants to be seen. And when Trump talks about the world, you know, not respecting the United States prior to his being in office during the Biden years, what he's not talking about light, He's he's talking about feared when he relates to respect. And so just to be clear on that code. And so going to that point, that photo of him, that mugshot, is one where he's he's it's it's playing on his role in terms of being powerful and an authority and also don't screw around with me, fear me, and that plays well with a lot of his base. I would definitely agree with that. Obviously. Another image that is really going to come to everybody's mind is the event in Butler, Pennsylvania where he stands up and does the fight Fight Fight while he's bleeding from his ear. Obviously this plays into that as well. He's a promoter, right, he go back to his personality type. And I say that respectfully. This is somebody who is constantly thinking, how can I turn this to my advantage And once the horror of that situation with the shooting had taken place, quickly realized that he had an opportunity to grab that iconic photo, which again he used his advantage, and I think I was a very powerful image that only helped him with a lot of his base and independence in the last election. Sure, now you know, being human, we all are going to make mistakes. Is there instances, and I'm thinking one specifically that I'll throw out here. Was there instances where he thinks it's going to do well with his base and then it goes too far? And the image that I'm thinking about is the one that kind of made some waves where it has him as as almost as g as he's healing somebody. I'm sure you're familiar with the painting that he shared with the True social Is that an instance where Trump thought it was going to be effective and it went the other direction. You would be able to speak to that more than me. But I from my perspective when there was all the hullabaloo about it, I thought my reaction was really I mean, he has made that association in terms of his connection to God and the fact that this is destiny after the shooting in Butler that he was the anointed one for the people of the United States and the world. So you would speak better to whether that was offensive to believers. But from my perspective that was completely on brand. And by the way, this goes to something I talk about in terms of Trump's I talk about his core interests in the book, and one of them at the center is affirm for being perceived as a winner and having an impact if he can't, and this relates to his personality type as a promoter. If he can't have an impact, he's lacking oxygen. And that impact to something you mentioned earlier. It can be negative or positive. He prefer the positive, for sure, but he'll take the negative. So when he puts his name on a building, and the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, for example, he loves to see that's having an impact because his name's going to be on that building before it was removed. But he equally loves the impact that that having his name and the reaction against his having his name on that building is going to have. And it's hard for some of us who like to be popular to think that he would see it. That way, but he very much will. Take impact even if it's negative. And so that just relates back to the Jesus image and one that he had deniability he denied as his intent being Jesus and we have to say that. But certainly that kind of discussion and the furor had started. He's happy as a clam because one of his other interests, which I talk about and neuroscientists have talked about and psychologists is and it's consistent with being a promoter, is that don't be distracted by his wanting wealth and status, power and authority, affirmation and settling grievances. Is for interests. He's all about the journey and the big hunt. And he says this in the Art of the Deal, which I spend a chapter reviewing and negotiating with Trump, that he says, I don't know where any of these deals are going to end up, but I know I had a lot of fun doing them, and I live for that excitement. And I think if the history books don't look at excitement as one of his major drivers above any concrete interests, what gets him out of bed every day and what frankly drives our headlines every day is Trump gets bored easily, and he's all about what can I do today, even if it pisses people off. You know, as you were talking, I was reminded of the movie with Jack Sparrow Pirates of the Caribbean, where one of the Englishmen says, you're the worst pirate I've ever heard of, and Jack Sparrow's response is, but you have heard of me. And so you know, that's kind of how I'm seeing Trump here now. With what you just said, that really kind of explains why Trump doesn't feel the need to necessarily court MAGA or evangelical Christians anymore. Well, again, if that's your perception, I'll take that as your perception. I think certainly that's true, and he's highly transactional and you just have to be aware of that. And I would say for MAGA. And for Evangelicals those on the right Christians, that transactional relationship worked out in many respects, not all respects. I think there's some bad stuff coming, but in the short term in terms of the Supreme Court nominations, in terms of abortion and no national laws on that front, you have to recognize it was a deal, and he came through on his part, and you know we came through on ours, intellecting him. But at this point, certainly, when you look at the Epstein files and the economy and the war in Iran, Iran, I think superficially at least met evangelical and religious interests in supporting Israel. But my fear is that that will backfire and is bagfiring for Israel. And I'm a big fan of Israel, but you can see in the American electorate support has dropped significantly, and I think there's a real concern for Israel as a viable state going forward, potentially based on a lack of financial resources over time coming from the United States, which it's been heavily reliant on. I would definitely agree with that assessment. And you actually there's a perfect transition because I wanted to talk about Trump and his negotiations with the rest of the world. Now, you know, we've been talking about within America, but now we have this leader elected leader, and he's negotiating with foreign nations. He's negotiating with Putin Zelenski and Yahoo. I ran in a sense perhaps not well, yeah, but that one's kind of a boondog, and I want to return to that. But how does Donald Trump negotiate with these other world leaders who have their own egos? So stepping back, one of the things that I talk about in the book is and I want to show people what effective negotiation looks like, and as you said at the outset, the book's nonpartisan and views Trump through the objective lens of negotiation expertise and what I've done for decades advising governments and corporations. So there are two very basic forms of negotiation. One is where you assume the pie is fixed, literally the pie, and you and I are negotiating with each other calb and uh. We see our jobs as getting the biggest piece of pie, and we will we will hammer the other person, will use the seat, will use standards that don't apply, that are irrelevant, will focus on our own interests, will and generally that process is really a fight. And that's how. Trump approaches almost all of his negotiations. Is my job as a negotiator is to fight to get the biggest piece of pie. And he often succeeds in. That game, and there are lots of reasons he can be quite effective at it. The other approach, which is much which is proven by research, practice and science. To be the most effective approach to. Create sustainable long term value, especially in the context of long term relationships, is where we expand the pie, you and I working together to add ingredients that we each can contribute uniquely our different interests, come up with different options for meeting those interests. Use standards, objective indicators of what's appropriate to guide us to good outcomes while building trust and good communication through the process of negotiation. Very different approach, and if done well and in a savvy way, creates a lot more value over time. So let's come back to Trump. I would argue that he survived, he got into he negotiated his way his most successful negotiations, by the way, as I say in the book, with evangelicals and with mega in his entire life, those were his most successful negotiations, and because they allowed him to meet so many of his interests. But he's left. I would argue billions of dollars on the table for himself prior to twenty seventeen when he was in business, because he took a fixed pie approach as opposed to an expanded. Pie approach, which, by the way, gets. You a much bigger piece of pie than you'd ever get one way or the other, winner or loser from. A fixed pie. And there are lessons for all of us which I draw out in the book. But showing people that that's the reality of negotiation, and that if you hurt the relationship so badly, it hurts your reputations, so people don't bring you deals. And it also hurts trust with the other party and Iran. Ironically, right now we're suffering from that where Iran, because the presidents has attacked on two occasions unprovoked their country, He's not deemed as trustworthy from their perspective, and that hurts the president in terms of being able to use his credibility and trust to actually say no, I will commit to this and we'll have a deal. We'll both respect. Yeah. Once again, very well said on this, And you know, this is such an interesting way of approach. And I actually hadn't gotten to that part with the pies yet. I think it's going to transform actually how I go into negotiations and hey, is this a fixed pie or is this a pie that we can expand? But I want to turn towards Iran. And you brought up you know, the economy and Epstein, and I've covered both a lot on this show. I've covered Iran as well, but specifically with what you your expertise, I want to talk about Iran because you know, as I told you when we were talking off camera, I'm very libertarian in my approach, and I'm not for foreign entanglements. And that doesn't even have to be necessarily a libertarian approach. It's really an approach of our founding fathers foreign entanglements with none. And yet we continue to see ourselves, oftentimes at the behest of other countries Ukraine, Israel, that we get involved in these wars that we really don't have any business in, and ultimately they end up harming our country. And my real fear is that this thing with Iran becomes Vietnam, you know, for US, or Afghanistan like it did for the Soviet Union, where it just becomes this boondoggle. Yes, and driven by interests that I believe, in my opinion, relate back to the president's own interests and not national interests as a priority. Sure, there's some superficial national interest involved in Iran, but for the most part, you know, if it were about nuclear weapons and the concern that Iran was developing nuclear weapons one day, the expanded pie approach that we discussed earlier is exactly what and I don't care which president did it. It happens to be Obama. But that was an incredible departure from relations with Iran to that point and was a feat in Expanded Pie negotiations. The President would do very well to get back to that kind of agreement because there was an element of trust involved in that trust is no longer there. But you know, if you were my neighbor and you were hiding a needle something the size of a needle in your large property or home and it's somewhere, what do you think the fastest best way to get that needle if I want it and I'm the parallel being enrich uranium from you. Is it to bomb the hell out of your property and your house and hope that needle pops to the surface, and by the way, that needle can be broken up into smaller needles and distributed deep underground. Or is it to say, hey, kill them. You've got a needle that I really don't want you to have. How can I meet your interests to offset the benefits of having that needle to you? And that's what happened with the Expanded Pie negotiation in twenty fifteen. It had its limitations. Those could have been. Improved, for sure, But when you look at what Obama was looking at twenty fifteen is do I want to go to war over this? What are the risks of that straight or hoom moves could be cut off, which is advisors would have told them even ten years ago. I would argue that this Iranian negotiation is a perfect example of why a fixed pie negotiation wind lose does not work as effectively as an expanded pie win win approach to negotiations. Even if people don't. Like the idea of Iranians winning in any way, the world was winning at that point by having more stability in the Middle East, and we've seen the downside to fighting and war is negotiation. Just to be clear, you don't say negotiations broke off and then war started. War is just both parties going to their alternatives what they can do without the. Other side, because they both assume. That that or one or both decides that that better meets their interest for the time being, and ultimately there will be a negotiation at the table once that warring away from the table happens. Yeah, once again, I completely agree. It's like getting in a fistfight with somebody who's your equal, and ultimately you might both end up so tired that it's like, Hey, what's it going to take to start off this fight? Exactly? I mean that's what we're currently dealing with. I also think there's an element of public distrust that enters into here. I mean, we've been told for so many years and with so many different conflicts, that we had to go into here because of weapons of mass destruction, or to spread democracy, or this is a warlord that's just doing atrocious things to their people, and ultimately we end up in a fight that we probably shouldn't have been involved with. And typically we don't find those weapons of mass destruction or we see that taking out this dictator who was not a good person ended up with a power vacuum. Well, to your point, I would just looking at Trump's history and I in negotiating with Trump, I look at his sixty years of deal making. I don't see anything that indicates an America first policy in terms of his international dealings. As businessmen, he absolutely as somebody who loves to be affirmed and have an impact, the broader the impact globally the better, has a lot of instincts and business interests in dozens of nations around the world. Why would he suddenly become entrenched in just America. First, I think absolutely he was catering to Mega and that instinct. But now that he doesn't need Mega anymore, we're seeing where his actual tendencies lie. And let me pause you right there. I apologize, but we're hitting that hard break. I did to tell you what's coming. So hey, this is Caleb Collier with Church and State and I want to tell you about a great product, Liberty Cigars. I know for myself there's nothing grander that's sitting around a campfire having a great theology discussion with a group of men while smoking a cigar. That's why I love Liberty Cigars. Every cigar has a story to tell. Not only are you going to be smoking the finest cigars on the market, but you're also going to get a history lesson with every single one of them, from George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, the heroes of the American Revolution, general's presidents throughout history, and Tonia. I absolutely love Liberty Cigars. I need you to go to Libertycigars dot com use that promo code Church and State. You'll get a discount and you'll also be helping to support Church and State. With everything that we do, and we are back to thank you for staying with us. You're over at Church and State dot medium. We're going to go right back to our guests, but real quick, I do got to plug one of our awesome affiliates, and I'm going to go over to Mark three to seven dot com. Ladies and gentlemen, you know I work for them. I've never not told you that. I've never tried to hide that, but I love this company. And if you're concerned about your Fourth Amendment, if you're concerned about big government or big tech spying on everything that you're doing, well there's a very simple solution, and it's called a ghost phone or a ghost laptop. I use them both. I've got a ghost phone. The computer you see that I use every single day for recording is a ghost laptop. So check them out. They're using GRAPHYOS for the phone and Linux for the computer. Great company, Patriots, Christians, So go check out Mark three to seven dot com. Use the promo code Church and State. You'll get a discount and you'll help support us. And one more time, I'm going to remind you to please hit the donate button for us. Keep conversations like this alive. They matter so much. I'm trying to bring you the most interesting guests, and I think I'm I think I'm hitting them out of the park. You know, our current guest is absolutely incredible. He's got a great mind, a great book that I highly recommend. We'll be promoting that here in a little bit, but please hit the donate button for us. All right, with that, let's go back to our guest, author of Negotiating with Trump, Peter D. Johnston, And Sir, I cut you off. I hate doing that, but time it waits for no man, so please continue with what you were saying. Oh, simply put, thank you, Caleb. We were discussing America first and the fact that I see nothing in Trump's past that indicates that America first would be his priority. Of course, he prioritizes American interest, but not at the level of just being to the exclusion of everything international. He's done very well internationally, so I believe that the Iranian were in my opinion. Was Trump in February looking. At his tariffs had been his emergency tariffs had been turned down by the Supreme Court. The economy was suffering under those tariffs, the Epstein files were blowing up because of Maga's pushing him on it, and as a result, he thought, I need a distraction, and so he went into Iran in a way that the reason I can say this is when you look at the national interests, even as reflected in the Memorandum of agreement, there was nothing that met us interests better than the pre war state. But how did Trump satisfy his interests? He wanted to be affirmed as a winner by moving away from the domestic scene. Lots of leaders done that in the past. Trump's no exception. He wanted to show power and authority, which is another one of his interests, as a means to meeting his other interests, wealth and status. Grow that there's certainly there's lots of opportunities through stopping and starting a war, and the stability and the volatility the counter it to open up opportunities for earning money. The President's earned more, almost as much money as he earned during his entire time as a businessman. He certainly will by the end of his second term if he stays on the current path. And then he had grievances Sevening grievances is a fourth interest that I identified grievances against Iran. He believes that they interfered in both elections that he lost. Well, sorry, actually he believes they intervened in twenty twenty when he lost, as well as twenty twenty four. Did he get excitement, a thrill high from going into a situation where he didn't have experience in war, Absolutely, that would be there as well. We have the distraction factor, and then we have his allies. As I've said in fairness with the president, there was a portion of the American electorate, including evangelicals, who would have supported Israel. And I believe that we know on the record that Netnye, who came in and tried to convince the President to go into Iran, that it would be easy. But certainly we also know that his advisors said, no, he's selling you a bill of goods, and that's not the case. And I think the president smart enough to know he. Was being sold a bill of goods, but that it was. A good cover for national interests for him as president to go into Iran anyway, because he had a number of personal motivations, as I've just discussed. I like that you point out that really presidents throughout history, leaders throughout the world have used war as a way of distraction, as a way of propping themselves up to look like the strong man. And it reminds me of really the bullies. And I'm not saying that Trump's a bully, and I'm not asking you to say that he's a bully. But when I look at a bully and say they did poor in class and they got a really bad grade, and some of the students kind of laugh at him, maybe the teacher kind of brings them up, Oh, you've failed this test, and they're feeling insecure, their natural course of action is at recess to go pick on the little kid and to reestablish that dominance. And so that's what I'm seeing with so many of these world leaders. You know, certainly Trump's thrown in there, but I'm once again not asking you to call him a bully, but they do operate in this manner to try to try to be that dominant figure that hey, yeah, I'm still very powerful. Well, just exactly on that point, if we go back to June of twenty twenty five, when he first attacked Iran out of nowhere, just weeks earlier, as you may recall he was first alerted to tackle Trump always chickens out, primarily related to his tariff negotiations. And that's the problem with a fixed by approach, by the way, is it often involves, you know, laying out extreme threats and demands and then you have to retransure you're not going to get a deal. That's why it doesn't one of the reasons it doesn't work well. But I believe, certainly I'm not saying it was the driving force, but it was a consideration for Trump in June of twenty twenty five when he first bombed a Ron as a show of power and authority and a distraction from what was going on domestically. Is he naturally, given his profile and the emphasis he puts on on looking powerful and authoritative, which appeals to so many of his followers, that that tacko label was deadly for him, and he didn't want to look like a chicken. And I think Ron may have suffered in part because of that. Sure, yeah, that makes sense. I want to turn now towards something you brought up a little bit earlier in the show, because your book Negotiating with Trump, obviously it has a lot to do with Trump and his policies and his administration. But you can also apply this book to your daily life. You brought up the example of negotiating with your kids, Hey, it's bedtime. You negotiate with your spouse all the time because sometimes your interests aren't aligned. And so anyone reading this book, I believe is going to benefit from it and how they're negotiating through their daily life. Well. I wrote the book for two reasons to your point. One was I thought that as the most powerful military and economic leader ever in history, and given Trump's emphasis on negotiation and the State Department, his State Department calling him one of the or the greatest negotiator American negotiator of all time, I thought it was important to put that to the test and show people what effective negotiation looks like so that they can better judge Trump and be aware because all Americans are on the receiving end of his negotiation tactics as well as to what he does well and what he doesn't do as well. And then secondly, in the goal was in using Trump as a case study. He's probably the most prolific deal maker in history in terms of the breadth of deals that he's done from private to public and given his age, So what can we learn because we all have the same data points on him. You know, you would wonder, for example, why does he sit in cabinet meetings and why does everybody laud him as the great Emperor? If you recall from twenty twenty five, you know what's that about. And I just think it's important for people to understand that in terms of how they're being influenced, he's doing it and by the way he's doing it to ward off the twenty fifth Amendment at any point where his cabinet might turn on him, because it's not the declaration of the American people there that is important. It's that Trump is hearing from his own cabinet officials vows commitments they're making to him as a leader, Sir, we revere you and will never turn on you, and stating that publicly makes it that much more powerful. All that said, we can learn from Trump in our daily lives as to what doesn't work and what worked. And I would say, you know, with your neighbor, for example, a fixed pie approach where if you have a disagreement over a tree in their yard, that's casting shade on your yard, you know, going and cutting down that tree at the extreme in a fixed pie approach, win lose. You know what the impact as a Christian of that is going to be on relations and whether it's right or wrong. We're better to talk it through and it's not naive. Science and research shows that relationship and having a good relationship, having good communication. We may not agree, but we've got a sharing of the key facts that are germane to our discussion. Digging into your interest if we're having a negotiation, better understanding what drives you, your goals, your needs, your concerns, crafting mutually beneficial options out of that and using standards as I said earlier, and then finally coming to a choice, do we go to our alternatives what we can do without each other, or do we commit to an agreement that meets your interests and mine and allows us to coexist as neighbors and what that might mean in terms of trimming that tree back, for example, and you're paying for it because your neighbor doesn't want to pay for it, but it meets your interest to pay for it. Those are the kinds of. Approaches that I talk about in negotiating with Trump, that we can learn from his worst practices in terms of not pursuing them, but he also does a number of things well, and I. Talk about those in negotiating with Trump. Yeah, I got to say I love this approach because I think negotiating has been kind of lost and a lot of people, especially nowadays, it seems that they just demand. You know that there's a lot of entitlement going around in this country, perhaps even throughout the world, and so to bring back this art of negotiation to where you can approach somebody and not be a tyrant or not come off as entitled, to where you can give and take and you can sit down and have a good conversation with somebody and ultimately, maybe you didn't win entirely, maybe you didn't get everything that you wanted, but both walk away from the table feeling like they want something. Winning, to your point, is about looking at your own interests and how well they were satisfied. The best negotiation practice is I don't care if you won in terms of what you claim. I care about whether my interests were satisfied. And I just want to be clear on this. Just bring it back to kids for a second, when people your listener's viewers here, oh, negotiate with your young kids, Well, no, because I'm the authority and I'm going to tell you what to do. The truth is is that at a certain young age that can work. But if your kids get older, studies have shown that, you know, if the more you force them to do something, the more inclined they are to walk out the room and do something completely different. So your ability to follow and expand it by approach where you're talking about their interests in your concerns and you're trying to arrive at reasonable solutions that they can live with and that they won't breach the deal. That's where this comes in. And you know, as a parent dealing and I had young kids, one point I would. Say, let's yeah, let's discuss this. Let's discuss your interests in doing this and how you might do it safely. But to be clear on commitment as an element of negotiation. I'll be the one who's deciding whether you do this or not. But that doesn't mean I can't hear you out in terms of taking a different approach that we both commit to. Yeah, well once again, so well said there. I mean it's if you behave as a tyrant with your children, especially once they reach a little bit of an older age, those teenage years that are very, very trying for most parents. You act like a tyrant, that's that's you're breeding resentment and you're breeding problems cracks into the relationship that you're gonna have to deal with when they become an adult and they're no longer under your roof. And I know as a parent, as a parent, that's not what I want. That's not my desire for my kids. I actually just had a conversation with my son yesterday about this, and I said, you know, I look forward to the day when I know really have to be your parent. I'm always going to be your parent. I'm always going to have those concerns, but eventually you're going to come to an age where I'm more of your friend. And I look forward to that day. Sure, And you know, to draw up that point, and it's great you're having conversations like that with your kids. You know, rob a lot of parents react emotionally and understandably, and we'll say, Caleb, I'm taking the car away from you. I don't want you driving. I'm you know, I'm taking the car away. And that's a position which is core to a fixed by approach right where I'm just trying to win outright. But if I explain to you, Caleb, let me let me step back for a second. I'm sorry if I overreacted there. But the reason I'm taking the keys away is these are my concerns. And here, by the way, are the standards that are driving this concern in terms of the data that shows at your age, when you're talking about going out late at night and having a lot of young kids in the car. This is my fear. And let me just want to be and here's some articles on it. Why don't you read these and come back and let's have the conversation. That is science and research has shown is much more likely to get your kids being compliant once they walk out the door, because they understand suddenly the concerns that you've expressed to them, and they understand the objective data. So I think, I think this is a great reason for people to buy and to read your books or and we're running out of time here, so what I want to do is promote the book how people can get it. I know it's available on Amazon, which is uh, you know, I don't love Amazon, but it's probably the quickest and best way to buy the book. And so, Chris, if you can show the Amazon link there, well, that's the website there. We can go to that as well. It's fine. Oh, well, there's the Amazon. Chris has got it. So there's the Amazon book. You can find it anywhere. So it's available not just on Amazon. It's also available in audio if you're. Just looking for a good summer read as a posed to having to sit down and read through every page. Sure, and then of course there's the website as well, which is what I really want people to go to negotiating with Trump dot com. You can see Chris has got it up. There's books, there's a video that you're talking about. Here, you can read a little bit more. It's a great website. You can read about the author and I'll just twelve questions this book will answer. That's phenomenal, right there, tell us a little bit a bit about sorry, tell us a little bit more about your website and why people should go there. Well, people should. If they go to the website, they can also find out more about the work that I do around the world advising corporations, governments, and individuals on their toughest negotiation challenges. This is the work that I do. And Negotiating with Trump is a sequel to my first book, which was an international bestseller, and it was called Negotiating with Giants, Get what you Want Against the Awe, and certainly led naturally into a book about negotiating with Trump, arguably the most powerful military and economic leader in history at this point. All right, well, Peter, I so just am thankful that you joined our program. That she had so much wisdom excuse me to share with our audience, and so I'm going to once again tell people to go to Negotiating with Trump dot com buy the book. So far, what I've read is phenomenal. I'm looking forward to fisient at finishing this. But Peter, I'll go close us out. If you hold on one more minute post production to Sarah goodbyes. I'd appreciate it. But again, thank you for joining us on Church of State. Thank you, Caleb. It was an honor to be on your show. Absolutely, sir. All right, there you go, ladies and gentlemen. A fantastic book, How to Negotiate, How to Understand the mind of Trump and then also negotiating with giants. These are two books that I really think that the audience should read and start applying those to your daily living. I think it'll be of great benefit. Church of State is brought to impart by Colonial Life, Spokane Independent Agents, Finder's Insurance, and Mark three seven dot Com. I'm Caleb Collier. I was born for a storm. Welcome to the fire. Hey, this is Caleb Collier with Church and State. I'm here to tell you about Hunters Blend Coffee. I gotta tell you. I absolutely love this stuff. I'm all about the dark roast Hunters Blend coffee black powder. Doesn't that just sound like deliciousness and rebellion. I gotta tell you, in America, we don't drink tea. No, we drink coffee. 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