Matter of Facts: Show Us Your Recipe Book

Welcome back to the Matter of Facts podcast on the Prepper Broadcasting Network. We talk prepping, guns, politics every week on iTunes, Ditcher, and Spotify. Go check out our content at mwefpodcast dot com, on Facebook or Instagram. You can support us be a Patreon or by checking out our affiliate partners. I'm your host, Phil Raveley Andrew Nicker on the other side of the mic, and here's your show. Welcome back to Matter of Facts podcasts Mine Phil, this is Nick. I cannot hear squat in my headphones, which tells me that I turned my own volume way down. Oops, it poopsies, technical difficulties. Well, but here's the thing of it. It's not like y'all can't hear me, but when you can't hear yourself speaking, it does really weird things to your voice. But oh yeah, so I've had a quarker of a week of work. But like I was telling Nick right before we went live, I've had that weird experience every gun guy has eventually, where like you find mags that are loaded and you lost them and you have no earthly idea where they went, and also, oh there they are. Oh man, that was moving for me. I found so much, Ammo, dude, I've had, like because we talked about it last week, like I have finally like started to reclaim my garage. I put up shelving, I organize things, and every time i'd lift another box, I find more stuff, like more here's here's some powder. I know, there's some more gunpowder, and there's like two thousand primers, and here's a box of bullets, and oh, here's four pounds of herko that I have no frickin clue where it came from or how I got it or what I'm gonna do with it, although it turns out it's pretty good for load of nine million and forty five ACP. So winning unintentionally, and while I'm in the middle of doing all this, I'm making Nick a Nick box, which he will get at summer camp. It's like, I mean, I would call it the chinchiest compensation possible for a podcasting co host, but like I don't know, gunpowder and primers is always a win. And I had to look and see. I actually have to dig through because I found more large rifle magnum primers that I thought I had ever purchased. I gotta see if I can find all the large pistol primers a hex. I don't have any large pistol cases anymore. But do you have large magnum rifle match primers. I don't think I do. Well, you're gonna get a You're gonna get several hundred of them. Which is definitely gonna have to be downloaded for the three hundred win mag a sco shot powder. Yeah. Well, as I was going through all this stuff, like I was telling Nick, like, so the problem is years ago when I got like this, this just cornicopia of stuff from a reloading widow. Apparently her ex husband had a thing for big boomy things, because I got like this huge sack of three thirty eight bullets that I actually wound up hub giving away years ago because I couldn't find anybody that one shoot him. I finally just got rid of them, and in the process of doing that, I also came away with like a couple pounds of h one thousand, a couple pounds of several pounds of rotumbo that I was telling you about. And I'm looking at the load data for all this and I'm like, I can do literally nothing with this, Like I would have to go buy I would have to go buy a rifle and start up a reloading like thing just to be able to use any of this show because most of them are Most of that stuff is for Magnum cartridges. Yes, really, And the biggest rifle I own is a three away Winchester, so like it'd be a little bit slow for that. Yeah, yeah, and yeah. Once I found the large Magnum match rifle primers, that's when I was like, oh, this guy really liked to play with big, boomy things that made little bitty holes. So you will be the recipient of one of our deceased reloading brethren's wonderful part of his collection. I will take them out to the five hundred yard. Range that I've just become a member of, and I will try to play darts with them, which I think he would have appreciated. Okay, so Raggle is saying he would have bought it off me. So in the name of full disclosure, First of all, Raggle, I didn't know you could have used it, but I definitely knew Nick could have, and you know, he's my co host, so he kind of gets first crack at it. But the other thing was is I have actively intentionally not advertised this stuff for sale because I got it for free. And literally the woman that gave it to me, I mean, her whole thing was, she asked everybody in the family if anybody wanted to get into reloading, like she was giving way a turn key. Here's all my ex husband, here's all my late husband's stuff, here's his powder, here's the man had shelves of brass cases in the garage. I mean it was this guy is what you and I are going to turn into in about twenty years. The garage is gonna fly off now that it's that much lighter. Well, I gave her the number to a friend of mine that deals in brass and told her, I'm like, he will probably be more than happy to come out here and take all this off your hands. And if y'all can't come to a deal, you can always take to a scrapyard and scrap it. Oh yeah, just just the poundage and brass scrap price alone is pretty decent money. Yeah, so you know it was. It was really one of those hmmm troubles. Oh there goes my lights. Hold up second testing testing. I can hear you, Phil, I could you might be losing me though because of my Internet. It wasn't you. Apparently I bumped my microphone my mic game. Oops. So anyway, that's gonna be. That's gonna make editing of a lot of fun. I just have to remember six minutes in, I need to knock the game. I need to put four six minutes in. I need to bring the ain't up slightly anyway, post editing nonsense. Anyway, So we got I saw Stewart was in the chat. I see Raggle, and I see gem. So thanks for joining us tonight. Guys, We're going to talk about the last thing on the list for reloading until we remember what else we were supposed to talk about, because like there's whole podcasts, you know, dedicated to this, So we're not going to cover everything, but we are going to talk about recipes. Yeah, live the recipes, a little load development. Yeah. So, like I guess, from the perspective of a reloader, a recipe is exactly what it sounds like. It is this you want to make this cartridge. They recommend a specific case, but most people use, you know, whatever case get they get ahold of. They're they're dimensionally close enough for most people post purposes that you don't have to get Winchester cases if the recipe calls were Winchester cases. Comma. However, Comma, if you deviate from the recipe and in any way, shape or form, you are now responsible for that deviation. Yeah, this is why we'll get into this. But ladder testing and stuff like that is very important for load development. One hundred and ten percent. But like I said, it is this case, this primer, this much of this powder. Usually there's a range, there's a men in a max, or there's a max, and your advice to download ten percent for a MEN load. Sometimes, like with the Horny Data, it'll give you approximated observed velocities out of their test barrel and they'll tell you this was all tested in this length of barrel, so on and so forth for either this grain weight of bullet or this specific bullet. Yes, that is a recipe. It is literally a how to take components and put them together in such a dimensions and with such a tolerance, and as long as you stay inside the guidelines, you can do so with pretty good confidence that you're not gonna blow your gun or your hand or your eyeballs up. Because a reloading. A company, either Hornity or our CBS or Spear or hodged In some company put their name on the front of the book and said, we you swear. As long as you do what we say, you are within the boundaries. True. The only other thing that you've got to be careful of is. The brand and type of primer you're using. Yes, some brand primers are hotter than others. They will cause increased pressure, a little bit faster burn rate, a little bit faster velocities. Match primers and magnum primers. Also tend to have a little bit higher pressure generated from them. So if the recipe does not specify a magnum or match primer, I would recommend loading closer towards the men if you are switching to those those little higher octane primers. Yeah, and if you are changing anything in your data, you need to proceed with caution like That's that is pretty fair advice across the board. A couple of things. This is the second show in a row that Stewart has asked me if I'm a vampire, and I'm not getting the joke. I don't either. I've seen Phil, although I've never seen Phil's reflections but you have seen me in daylight, I have seen you in daylight. But Wesley snipes, you could be a day walker. I could be a day walker. It could be a day walker. Hopefully with a better credit score and no backo taxes, I would hope. So, doctor, scary guy, you have missed exactly nothing in the last five minutes, are than me and Nick goofing around and me having microphone difficulties. So you're right on time. Perfect, Jim. I'm pretty sure you're being very facetious. No, you don't just fill the case to the top. You don't. You do not fill the case to the top and then smash the ball down on top of it. Well, I mean within the safety margin. It's not for any case, any any recipe I've ever seen. Have you not heard of a compressed load? Phil, But that's not let's not powder up to the top of the case. No, it's up to the bottom of the neck. I know. Yeah, Stuart, So you saw yourself in the mirror and still showed up looking like a Taliban recruiter. Listen, but yes, my wife likes my beard, or at least she tolerates it one or the other. And you're not I'm not trying to snuggle with you, so her opinion matters more than yours. Besides, I'm growing get out so I can cut off and donate the locks of love. There you go, only eighteen more inches to go. Yeah, Jim is giving the disclaimer that we were going with. Always go with published loads. Do not take any recipe we discuss on this show to get day or ever, and just go out your garage and brew up a bunch and throw them in to your gun. Don't do that. You. If you blow your gun up, you are responsible for that, not me and not Nick. But that being said, granted, I also redacted all of my three hundred win magloads because they are well in excess of the published maximums. Because it's fun. I mean, mine only color outside the line is a tiny little bit. But I also have like reason to do so, like you and I were talking about my three o eight load, and like, yeah, I'm coloring outside the lines only in the technical sense because I'm like a full grain too hot according to the data source I'm using. But the data source I'm using is made for m one a's, which are notoriously intolerant of hot three aweight Winchester, so they're intentionally downloaded. So like I know that the max load in that chart is intentionally downloaded. Right, And if and if you were to look up, say other manufacturers recommendations for that, you are going to see different data. And that's because the data was created for a different purpose, like send me automatic load data is going to be slightly different than bolt action rifle. It just is. Yeah, suffice to say, I will show my loads. I haven't redacted any of them. I am confident that you're not going to hurt yourself with any of them, but not confident with my three hundred wind mag looads. It is really right, Well, all of minor within somebody's boundaries. Yeah, But so let's do we talk about load development first or do we go to the recipe books first? Well, I have some good load development stuff in the recipe page I threw together for this. I do too, not a lot, just like a tiny little bit. You want to start with yours? Do you want to start with mine? I'll toss mine in here first, go for it. So, at Nick's suggestion, I have digitized my my reloading book because originally this was my my recipe book. Because you know, I didn't. I started writing a lot of these back before, like you know, having a spreadsheet on your phone was a really convenient thing. So I literally wrote everything down, and there's pages ripped out of here, and there's stuff in the margins. And interestingly enough, Nick, you remember how I told you that I lost my load data for a load and then I found it. Yeah, yeah, it's because it's on this little half page right here. I totally I literally found this jug of Midwest Powder's WC A forty four in my collection, couldn't I Like, I remember that I intended to develop a recipe for it, but I couldn't remember actually doing the load development. So I was like, well, damn, I'm gonna have to put that on a list and i'ma have to prime some cases. You got ETI off. And then I found this with a load sir circle, and I was like, oh, I guess I already did that. Nice anyway, So when but d Nick suggestion, I did go ahead and digitize all this, which has actually kind of been easier to carry around, honestly, because now I can just dial this up on my phone and take a look at it at any point in time. And this is just the most basic way you can track your recipes. I mean, it's a given cartridge, it's a type of powder, it's the chargeway of that powder, and then overall length, which is, you know, the loaded length of the entire cartridge. If you have those variables, and if you're not really picky about the brand of case, the brand of primer and so on and so forth, and I guess I really should include in here like what kind of primer I'm using, But quite frankly, you know, like three away Winchester uses large rifle primers and not making to use a small pistol primers, and so on and so forth. If you are sticking with standard large rifle, standard small pistol, it's really not going to be that much of an issue switching from brand to brand. It's when you. Get into stuff like I have a thirty out six load for magnum primers, I have a thirty out six load for non magnum primers. That is where you get a problem, or well, I shouldn't say get a problem, could have a problem. Yeah, I probably do need to note on here because Rose nine to ten, these two three seven magnum loads for the uh accurate seven and accurate nine. These don't use magnum primers. I remember that off the top of my head. This H one ten obviously does. But I need I need to note that. Yeah, I usually do. And if I have for for rifles I'm attempting to make very accurate loads for I will note the case that I'm using as well, because case volume does vary a little bit from manufacturing and manufacturer. Yeah, and here here's that infamous load that I always bring up, the ninety graine and hornty XTP and a nine milimeter case six point eight grains of power pistol at one point seven ol. That's just gonna be screaming. I have chrono that one at fourteen hundred and twenty five feet per second out of a four inch barrel. It is blistering fast. I need to see the velocity data off your scorpion. Oh oh, the scorp Yeah seven, A little bit longer barrel on it. Uh huh. Honestly, we can get just just a smidge more velocity out of that. I mean, power pistols a fair bit slower than universal is, so it might actually pick up some more velocity in a longer, we'll. Probably gain fifty or seventy five feet per second. Yeah, and I mean we I guess we might as well. I'll go through the rest of these tabs here in a second. But like, sure, it is worth pointing out that, like when when I load, when I start developing a load, I'm usually chasing one of a few different things. I'm either loading as cheaply as possible, so I'm just trying to make like bulk training AMMO planking AMMO, I'm usually ama from middle of the road velocity, something that doesn't beat the gun up, something that's at least full power a per roughly approximates factory AMMO. But in my opinion, I would put my planking AMMO toe to toe with like you know, your your redmulton UMC any of your bulk training AMO out there, because I know it's just as reliable and it's more consistent. That's important. Or I'm chasing performance, which can be velocity, it could be accuracy, it could be both, And I can't speak for a Knick's experience, but like my experience has always been that usually if I'm chasing accuracy, not always. So this is a weird experience I've had, I have not had weapons in my custody. I have not had weapons in my custody that produce their most accurate load at maximum pressures and velocities. I would agree with that. Usually you come down like a grain, two grains, a little bit, you find that happy little load where the group's size all of a sudden starts shrinking down. And like my experience with load development has been when I'm when I'm loading for accuracy, I will see the groups that I start like a shotgun pattern, and it will get smaller, smaller, smaller, smart smaller. Then all of a sudden, it starts getting bigger again. And as soon as I see it open back up like you might as well stop. I know what it's doing. So there's there's an interesting thing about that. I do have one rifle that really likes the highest velocity I can possibly get, and that's my weather Be Vanguard three hundred wind mag don't know why. The higher the velocity, the better that thing tends to shoot, which is why I don't let other people shoot my reloads for that gun, because the pressures I'm getting up to are considerable. But you'll actually see that in my ladder log that I have for my thirty odd to six load load development in mind, so we can talk about that a little more there. Yeah, I'm actually gonna make one air little point. I'm gonna knock this down so you can show yours. I've got some things in here, Nick that like bear in mind, I'm a gigantic spreadsheet nerd, but some of these things you might actually enjoy implementing in your own spreadsheet. Because I have to take a look. Yeah, I gotta tease the tease the audience a little bit though, But I was gonna say that, like I've had that experience with rifles. Now with pistol, Ammo, I've had the opposite experience where usually the hotter I drive a pistol round, it seems to get more and more and more accurate until I slam face first into the maximum the maximum load. Sure, I have never that could be a universal experience. I just don't know enough reloaders enough to like know if that's a universal experience. But at least like that, this power pistol load, I was going hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter, and when I hit the maximum load, that was the most accurate load H one ten and I through seven. I got hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter, and actually exceeded the maximum per the data by I think six tenths of a grain. And I'll be damned to that round doesn't get more accurate the fat the harder you drive. It interesting. I've never had an experience with at least with my guns, which is like sample size of one, where my pistol rounds get less accurate when you drive them harder. I'm sure somebody out there, somebody out there has had the exact opposite. But like, that's why it's important to do your own work. It very much is. I mean, it's gonna change barrel to barrel, and it's gonna change action to action. It's gonna change bullet to bullet too. I mean a lot of it is is how much time the projectile is spending in the bullet and the barrel harmonics, given how stubby pistol barrels are and the fact that a lot of modern pistol actions the barrel actually pivots. So if you are getting that round out of the barrel before the action begins to open and pivot, you are gonna have a more accurate load because your barrel's in a more stable position. I mean, there is something to that, although technically that bullet should have well left the barrel before that action starts to open up. Should have should have? Am I using the S word? Yeah, Well, I'm just saying it's the pistol actions are just different than rifle actions, especially modern tilt barrel pistols and stuff like that. It's, you know, I don't know, Maybe maybe I'm wrong, and maybe that's not the cause, but I'll throw mine up here. Show it and get it all right. So there it is up top. You guys can see. I've got a few different nine millimeter luger loads. I've got a forty five ACP load. I've got another nine milimeter luger load and a couple thirty. Yes, hit your view button and zoom in a little bit, can I yep? Then no? Look right right there you go. I'm doing it on the spreadsheet. Yeah, that's what I was saying, all right. So because some people were bastard out there trying to look at this on an iPhone or an iPad and that that was not gonna work, that's true. So as you guys can see I've got a few more vertical columns and fill does. I've got column as your caliber, columb's your bullet manufacturer, bullet weight, bullet type, because I do have different bullet weights and types by manufacturer. And then I've got a few different either loads I have tested with those bullets in various powders and then various charge weights. If you look in the in the powder weight area in row three and four here you can see i've got ranges. Those are ladder load tests that I did, okay, and I've also listed the exact type of primer next to that, as well as the type of k if it mattered. So, for instance, round nose soft cast lad with Winchester two thirty one, did a ladder test using CCI small pistol primers in a mix of cases to an overall length of about one point one two five loaded twenty. And then I've got some notes here for for what I noticed. Letting in the boar. No matter what I did with those bullets, I had letting in the boar, even though they were waxed bullets. According to the manufacturer, they should be fine for nine millimeter whatever it was that lot of bullets was terrible. You can see the next The next round I did was let's see who made those CKB cast bullets. A local guy that I deal with. I loaded from three point three to three point five. They generally grouped well, didn't have any problems. Did start seeing over pressure signs at three point six, even though yes, two thirty one supposedly can go up to three point eight grains with a one forty seven grain bullet, so supposedly supposedly. Again, this is why we do those things, these things, and then I usually keep track of let's see, as you can see, there's another load here, duplicated prior load on a progressive press. But I made eighteen hundred rounds that time. I usually will note when and what press I have made the rounds on, so that if I notice a problem, I can go back and I can pull down I can I can go through and look at those rounds that already loaded and see if there's an issue. Raigel says he does three point seven grains two thirty one on his If it works for your gun, that's great. I had pressure signs at three point six, and maybe that's the difference in our guns hard to say. Stewart's also saying that he also uses spreadsheet, not surprising because he's also a gigantic computer nerd like I am him. But he has a summary tab and an individual tab for each load. Nice. But he's also cracking chrono data in his So I have. Kind of collated a lot of this data together for Phil because my spreadsheets like fifty three pages of different test datas. And speaking of ladder tests and test datas and chronographs, we'll get into a little bit of that down here. So ladder tests here. Here's an interesting thing that Phil will have noticed with some of his guns. Phil, As you can see here, I got a couple of I got a couple of. Rows colored here. That green row is. A note that I targeted because all right, it was the best group initially, but that you can see the yellow A higher velocity load with a higher primer or with a higher charge weight. For my thirty odd six did have almost the same group sized by MLA, which makes a lot of sense when you know what barrel whip is. But any higher than that, I started getting over pressure signs. Yeah, So what I decided to do was I was going to back off to the forty eight point five target the forty eight point five and then do a further ladder test at tenth of a grain increments above and below that before I finally dialed in exactly what I wanted, which was about forty eight point four to forty eight point six grains. So Phil brings up barrel whip. For those of you guys that don't know story, you gave me a zoom and more I can do that. I actually have a real on our Instagram from god knows how long ago that is slow motion showing me test firing one of the ars I built. Yeah, and you can see if you keep your eye on the muzzle, the muzzle device, you can watch that thing do this with every oh yeah, absolutely can't noticeably whipping up and down. So you're gonna notice if you do a very wide ranging ladder test, you're gonna have a couple of different nodes, different which describe different velocities at which your barrel is at the most similar point for those rounds. Now, I don't know if you notice, Phil, I've got a column labeled color neat little trick friend of mine taught me for when you're. Doing ladder tests. You're gonna set your target up at one hundred yards, two hundred yards, three hundred yards, wherever. You happen to be setting it up. And what you can do so you don't have to walk out to your target and circle those groups on the paper before going back to the bench and then resuming shooting. Take a sharpie and color the bullet literally draw on the bullet. It will transfer onto your paper target, and you will see a ring of red around say the forty seven point five grain loads. You can do even do it with half and half colors, and you will see a circle. You will see a bullet impact. That's half black and half red. It works out really nice for if you've got a busy range. So let me offer an alternative to that. I have a bunch of targets that I use only for load development rifles at one hundred yards and the center bull on these is a one inch circle two inch circle superimposed over that, so you know, any thrown thing from one to two m way is pretty easy to figure out. But it's five of these on like a square eight inch basically sheet, And then I do that yeah diagram diagram, and I have this on the bench next to me, and I'm taking notes on it as I'm shooting. But this is also there so that as I pluck those rounds out of that MTM case, which is already label so I know this first rows this much, the second rows this much, and I am, like very intentionally taking these five rounds and I'm putting them into that top left target because that is where the thirty nine point eight load goes. That works too, And then you do that, and then when I'm done, I go up, I take those targets back to my bench, bring them home, get the calibers, and I can measure them, and I can tell you exactly at that point what the most accurate load was because I know I shot that load into that part of that target. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean kind of like that. It's not a question of like my methods better than NIX or anybody else. It's just two different methods. But it's it's about have a method so that you know that group was made with this load, because ultimately that's what you're going to need to know if you're chasing accuracy and the other thing. And Nick and I haven't talked about this too too much. Yet, but I think this is just as important to doing load development. Catch your freaking brass. Yes, I will intentionally have either. So if it's my ar, I've got like one of the little whatever they're called, the little brass catchers, Yeah, brass catcher. My rifle, my bolt action makes this really easy. But in a worst case scenario, if I am test firing something or testing a load and I don't have any way good way to catch the brass, I'll intentionally bring a ball cap and just hang it over the side of the over the side of the ejection port, and just anything to catch a few of those cases so that you can look at the primers. And at least in my experience, the primers are usually going to be the first thing that tells you you're pushing your luck. Yeah, I agree. So after I do my ladder test, one of the things I always do, phil is I'll load up twenty identical rounds of my target range. Yeah all right, and then as you can see here, I will record chronograph data for every single one of those rounds. Properly nerdy right, find the max deviation, find the average MOA, and if I'm getting a reasonably accurate average MA. So in this case, this load here, the average velocity was two thy six hundred and sixty three feet per second. Max deviation was seventy nine feet per second, which is in my opinion, unacceptable for a handload. Still needed to be tuned, and. The UH looks like the average MOA was point two seven sixty. Five moa, so a little over a quarter moa measuring from like center of the whole, the center of the whole, I'm assuming correct. Yes, yeah, you got to go from center of impact point because it as best you can go from. Center of impact point. Well, I would say that if you want to com I would say it's important to know that you're measuring center to center. But if you're going to measure outside to outside in your data set, that doesn't I would think that. I would think it doesn't matter as long as you're consistently measuring like that's fair. I So, because I shoot a couple different calibers, I go from center of impact. Yeah, and because then it's caliber agnostic. Yeah. I was gonna say, like, if you measure like outside to outside, then obviously big boar is going to have an advantage, is going to have a disadvantage over small board in terms of like this. The group size, but which is some of all six or five crade Mores factory rounds claim very tiny group sizes. Yeah, but if what you're chasing is the most accurate, the most accurate in your weapon, then it doesn't matter as much as you're measuring outside to outside, and you're you're making the group size bigger because you're counting the bullet half the bullet diameter in the group size, But it doesn't matter because like a one and a half m OE group is still not as good as a half m a group, even if it'd be a zero point three MA group if you subtract it from the half the diameter of the bullet on your side, absolutely that was way fricking nerdier and worthier than needed to be. Which on the well, No, it's it's important to know. It's important to know the deliberate choice that you are making for your measurement system, however you decide to do it. Now, As I said, seventy nine feet per second max deviation, that's not very good for a high accuracy. Loan, we can do better. So the next thing I usually do then is I will do a ladder test, but with case length not case length. But I'll give length on the bullet yep, and I will vary it from where I started. I will go out not quite. To the max length, because then you have feeding issues if you have a magazine fed. And I will not go below minimum. But I'll do like twenty or thirty thousands in either direction, because some bullets really like a little bit of jump that is coming out of the case before a little bit of move before it hits the rifling. And some bullets really like to be seated into the rifling and then fired. So a longer and then some bullets couldn't give a shit if they tried. Some bullets just do not care. Cr matchkings do not seem to give a shit. That has been my experience too. But my thirty odd six, my Remington seven hundred action seems to do better with a shorter overall length. And I was able to get more jelossity, Yeah, more jump. It liked more jump. I don't know why. My rifle just likes that, and so that's what we do for that rifle. I was able to get. My average FPS deviation down to like or my max deviation down to like eighteen feet per second, which is pretty good given IMR forty sixty four as the powder of choice and non match grade primers. So when I was when I was doing work up for three Away, I play with one hundred and sixty eight Grand and Hornerty Amax first before I went to Sierra Matchkings, and I never I will in the influence closure. And this is not like an endorsement of one bullet over the Other's my one of one experience. I was able to get the Amax a little bit under an inch at one hundred yards, oh sure. But my experience with the Amax was that they were so goddamn picky about overall length and about see they're they're temperamental. They like to be like right, just just making out with with the lands of your brushing the lamb. Yeah, they don't, they don't. They do not like to be shoved into it. Like if you if you've chambered that round and then unchamber it and you can see the rifling like engraving itself on the bullet you went to, you're gonna open up, You're going to open up your group. But if they but if they if you have a lot of jump, those bullets do not do not behave themselves in my my, my one of one gun. I know it's the same thing in my thirty odd sex with Amax bullets. That's why I went to Matchkings. And when I went to see her match Kings, not only did I ultimately and now it wasn't the same, It wasn't the same charge weight. It wasn't like I just swapped the bullet ran everything else exactly saying like I did a whole nother workup. But when I switched to max Kings, I managed to get a slightly smaller group. But the cool thing was is when I started tuning overall length, that freaking bullet doesn't give a damn Like I mean, I listen. I loaded it from a hair under minimum link all the way until it was like halfway into the throat of the barrel, like intentionally longer than there was any reason to load it, and it just didn't care. Yep, it was boringly stable. The bullets don't seem to. But you will find a point at least I have always found a point at which my action was happiest, even though the change wasn't dramatic downrange. Stuart saying, now get the process by tuning the load to work and work the same in two to three different specific ars. You just drive yourself average. You will drive yourself fricking crazy. I know it's doable, and I know Stuart's done it, but you will drive yourself that crab crazy. Yeah, I mean they'll so, Phil. Have you ever played with tuning neck tension? Now your rounds at all? Have not played with neck tension. Haven't played with concentricity either, And like you and I were talking about before the show, like I acknowledge it makes a difference. It can, yeah, but it don't make enough of a difference. And I'm not a good enough shot to care. And that was that was the point I wanted to get to, is I did play with tuning neck tension on my thirty odd six rounds. I did. I tuned it and tuned it and tuned it and tuned it and tuned. It, and I did not find And now this could be Sierra Matshkins again just not giving a shit. Quite possible, quite possibly could have been the cases I was using not being consistent enough to matter because they were a Federal Gold medal match. So they were good cases. Not premium premium, but good cases. And it could be that I'm just not that good. I mean, to be fair, I snuck a peek at your m aay hey calculations. I mean, like, this is the hell of being in this group of friends that were in though, is that like we have. A higher than average standard and we consider ourselves not good enough. I mean, I'll be the first to I will be the first to out myself that three away Winchester load. I've had four rounds clover leaf together at one hundred yards, but I know I know four or five people off the top of my head. They can shoot so well they make me look like an amateur. So it's one of those It's one of those hells that we fall into when you're like a really experienced, accomplished shooter and you have other friends who were really experienced and accomplished, where like you constantly think you're the you're the biggest rat bag bastard on the face of the earth, Like everybody can shoot better than I can, but if you walk out to your local range, you blow ninety five percent of them off, you know, off the fire. Well, yeah, but let's let's discuss the realities of scale there, all right. So for instance, me now compared to me seven. Years ago shooting pistols, I look abysmal compared to how I shot pistols seven years ago, because I was shooting seven thousand rounds a year in that matter. Right right now, I have been shooting fifty to one hundred rounds a month. Lately. I now have access to a nice private range again, so I'm gonna be shooting a bunch more. In fact, I'm going out tomorrow with my wife. That will be a lot of fun, and doing a lot of a little bit of holster work while I'm there because they allow it, which is fantastic. But I'm not shooting sub tenth of a second split times and sub sub one second draw to first shot on target at times anymore. I'm just not because I'm out of practice. Same thing goes for long raine shooting. I mean, can I go with any of my rifles, with any of my pet loads and put rounds consistently on target out to five hundred yards? Yes? I can do that. Can I hit a golf ball at five hundred yards? No? I know people that can. They are better than me. They are considerably better than me, but they also shoot five times more rifle ammunition a year than I do. So some of it is practice. Some of it is inate ability because they're just steadier than I am. Yeah, some of its equipment. I mean, I'm. Using a nineteen seventies or eighties. I haven't checked the serial number on it. Remington's seven hundred with a hunting weight barrel in an aluminum chassis, So the barrel's working against me. The action's probably not as tight as a modern action. Could that rifle perform better with a better barrel? Yeah, yeah, probably could with a newer barrel that's not been shot as much. Absolutely, I've definitely noticed it is not as accurate as when. I first got that rifle. In fact, I have been considering rebarreling it. I mean, to be fair. Three hundred wind mag is famously notoriously Oh that's abusing, that's. The odd six the weather being three hundred wind mag I can definitely see erosion in the throat of that because of how hot the loads are. Yeah, but let me click back over to my sheet. I want to show you a couple of these and then we can talk through like our our our process for load development and warning signs at the same time. And then I have two mother tabs in here for what was helpful what wasn't to kind of like talk about like either in the process or what things did or didn't make a difference. Like we've already started talking about a lot of that. So this is where we left off. These are these are my pet loads. And honestly, I don't know I have the personality where like when I the reason why there isn't a specific bullet list here it's just one hundred and twenty four grain is because I've got like three thousand freaking you know of the exact same bullets sitting on the shelf. Because are they one hundred and twenty four grain, round noose? Flat points? Are they round nose? Are they jacketed? Are they gas checked? Are they cast led loubed or cast led coded? But my point is I've got three thousand of the exact same bullet on the shelf that this load is made for. I have a box of like powder coated, some leads, some random shit god Oin knows, haven't made load with any of that yet. If I have a pet load, it's made for a specific component, and I have a few thousand of those on the shelf, and when I run out of all those, then it's time to do more load development, play with something else, which I'm probably gonna have, probably gonna have to play with some of the stuff I have, just to build some loads for some of it, because I know always come where I have to load it. Well, worst case, at least then you have the data ready to go and you say, all right, great, I can't get the other components slap this together. Part of what held me up though, was the fact that, like until recently, when I actually unearthed all this crap in my garage, I knew it was in there, but I didn't know where it was. But anyway, so here's what you do when you're a spreadsheet nerd. Is I built this sheet which I'm continuing to kind of foots with that's just called ready to load, and this mirrors all those pet loads I have, along with how many pounds of that specific powder I have, What primer type I have, I'm her quantity, which is pulling off of another another a this other sheet that's just primers, and that's literally my primer inventory. I'm also gonna build out another inventory for all the powder I have, not just the powder for my pet loads, but like all the random crap I got lying around that, I just need to get inventory finally, But what ready to load? Then? That's why I'm showing you because I thought it was a good idea. That is a good idea. I'm gonna steal that idea. I will actually send this, send a copy of this to you if you want, because I mean, you're welcome to crypt the formulas and everything's. Oh, I will do exactly that if you send it to me. It's look up which is not hard to eat, but no it's not. But if you've already got it built, yeah, Now here's the thing. You follow this across three away Winchester one hundred and sixty eight grain Mr forty sixty four. I've got only got two pounds of forty sixty four on the shelf, which is why I need to make an er load for farget My soul twenty five hundred large rifle primers, and that amount of powder will load three h hundred and twenty nine rounds, and I have two hundred and twenty bullets. Although I literally just just got another one hundred ins, so up to three twenty. So what I need to do is is I need to like build another sheet that I need to finish this powder inventory and build another one that's bullet inventory, and then start pulling that data into here instead of plugging it in. But the idea what I what I struggled with when I started, like started inventory all my reloading stuff and organizing and everything else, was I started to realize, like I have these huge imbalances in what I have stocked, Like I have thousands of primers, but I'm running short on bullets in a couple for a couple of these loads, Or like I have tons of bullets between like my pet bullets and just the random junk that I've accumulated over the years, but I don't have enough of my preferred powder to load all those bullets. So now I have to like look at some of these other Like I've got four pounds of her Co just lying around that will work just fine a nine mili, but I have a load for it. So that's kind of what I'm using this spreadsheet to do, is to point out to me, like, hey, dummy, matter of fact, I just need to do I need to add a few things to this, like I just got one thousand, one hundred and fifty eight grain bullets for this. But basically what this is doing is it's helping me for realize, like, Okay, I've got forty one hundred of these primers. I've got enough powder, enough h one ten when two nine six load fifteen hundred of these one hundred and fifty eight grain three seven magnums. But I've only got a thousand bullets. So to show that up, I need to buy another five hundred next payday. And then down here you see that powder will load and bullets on hand is a lot closer balanced for a lot of these things. That's telling me that I'm probably okay with that I should probably look towards buying more powder instead of buying more of these bullets. This sheet is helping me figure out how to restock my reloading components in a little bit more of a in a little bit more of a concerted rational way than just ooh, it's on sale, it's by yeah, or like when the friend of yours, a friend of the show, sends me a thirty pound box of brass, I don't have enough bullets to load all that brass. Yeah, Stuart asked, it's each primer quantity separate, And the answer is no, So like I don't have if if I'm showing like small pistol primers, that's this same fifty five hundred small pistol for all of these. I understand what Stuart's saying is, like, you know, like the probably the better way to do this would say I have thirty six hundred of these for this, and I've got six thousand of these, and if I've got this and this, then that's ostensibly like ninety eight hundred primers. I would need to load that quantity of both. You know what I'm saying. I understand what he's saying. For me, though I don't load all. I don't load a whole ton of a lot of these like this one hundred and twenty five thirty eight special. I mean that's for my jaframe. And I don't know if you could tell from the grimace on my face, but shooting a shooting a fourteen ounce jframe with really hot ammo is not a fun, pleasurable experience. It's pretty much something I do once a year just to remind myself how double action trigger works. So I don't I don't ever feel there's a reason why there's only three hundred of these bullets in stock, because I've already got a bunch loaded, and I really don't want to load a lot more because you really don't want to shoot a lot. I really don't like shooting that gun. But you know, I saw what Stewart had said earlier that and you know that he actually has, like I have this many loaded. I think you've done the same thing, and that is probably something, and it's probably something that I don't know that I'll ever get to, just because like the way that the way that my backstock for AMMO works is that I have ammunition that is earmarked for like breaking case of emergency, don't shoot unless it is your last resort type of AMMO, and that is primarily like nine mili a bit of seven six about thirty nine for the AK and a fair bit of five five six for the ARS. It's the home defense AMMO. Yeah, and then everything else is pretty much on those shelves in the garage where it's kind of I mean, I measured this stuff and how many AMMO cans I have loaded. I don't care how many thousand rounds it is. It's like it's an ammo can. It's a fifty calamocam full of ammo. It's a lot. Well. So, the one of the reasons why I do that, why I track how much I loaded when, is for quality control for myself. And that is a very valid reason, you know, because I'm I'm not the only one that shoots the Samuel and thank you Stewart, I really do appreciate the breast. That's going to be fantastic. And though I do. Wonder who in the hell at your range was shooting that much twenty five auto. A masochist, Zach. Seriously, there's I've never seen an entire box of twenty five auto brass in one place at one time, even though I've seen people shoot it. I don't know. But but yeah, because my wife also shoots a lot of my reloads. So if I find a problem with some of the AMMO I've loaded, I need to go back and check through all that animal that's my If it blows up on me and I loaded it, fine, Okay, I fucked up. I earned the consequences. I'm not having it blow up on her. No, that's fair. Yeah, So this is what I was talking about. This is the one thing I have inventoried so far which is just primers. Yeah, and I get someone go ahead and throw in the Matthew McConaughey, those are rookie novers. You need to bump those up. I get it. Cute, But like, this is something I'm probably going to also reproduce for bullets and for powder eventually. I just you know, we're we're we're actually getting ready to go on a short weekend vacation. So it's gonna have to be another weekend when I'm not otherwise spoken for that I can spend some time in the garage just with my phone now that I have my reloading spreadsheet on my phone, just you know, inventoring stuff and plugging numbers. But I will do the same for powder and for bullets. Just kind of not there yet. And then this is something I will probably delete the I might delete this this tab out, or I might just leave it here. But this was this was a very quick little throw some of the load development stuff again from the old school recording method into the spreadsheet in no real So bear in mind that like when I started out a lot of these notes. It's literally like handwritten notes in pencil on a sheet of paper. It wasn't envisioned to be a nice, pretty spreadsheet. No, But. Since we were good, I'm going to talk about load development at some point. The way I traditionally do load development, which is I imagine is very similar to a lot of guys. I use ladder loads. If I have load data that has a published minimum and a published maximum. If it's a powder I have absolutely zero experience with, I will usually like start at the minimum and work my way to the maximum. I agree. First personally, I have here a note like ten to thirteen percent each step increase. Now here's the thing of it, Like I kind of cheat this around a little bit, because like going up ten to fifteen percent per low. You know, per ladder is a good good signpost to start with in a lot of cartridges. However, in cases where you're dealing with like a small volume pistol cartridge and a very fast powder, there is no ten percent because ten percent might be the difference between minimum maximum correct, So you have to use this with a you have to take this with a grain of salt. If I'm dealing with a cartridge that is like a small volume of cartridge like nine millimeter, and it has a very narrow window between minimum maximum. I will usually load the SOB two minimum, take it down and test part and if it cycles the gun reliably done, not not pushing, not pushing a maximum with a with a really small window. Now, on the other hand, like the power pistol is playing around with to develop that ninety grain load, I actually would have to look it up to remind myself, but that actually had a pretty generous window between minimum and maximum, so there was a lot of room to like play around until I found the load that I liked. With pistols, especially because of how tight the load windows can be, I will go with tenth of a grain or two tenths of grain steps from minimum to maximum, and I will shoot a couple of rounds, pick up the brass, inspect and inspect the primers, inspect the brass, and if I don't see any problems, I'll shoot the next five, the next five, and the next five until I get to max. And if I don't see any. Problems there, then I will pick a load to chronograph. Because typically so with with pistol loads, when when I was building my one forty seven grain load, I was trying to mimic one forty seven grain hsts as close as I could with cast lead with coded cast lead bullets. Because I don't know about you, Phil, but dumping five hundred rounds of hsts really hits the pocketbook a lot more than cast lead one seven grains. And my carry AMO. Is one forty seven grain hsts. That's what lives in my magazines on my hip all the time. So all of my training animal for nine millimeters pistols are one forty seven grain loads mimic hsts. So every single trigger pull, I am mimicking my self defense AMMO. There will be no recoil change, or there should be no recoil change, no shooter felt change, switching for one. To the next. Yeah, I wouldn't say I paid that much attention to mimicking one hundred and twenty four grain hsts when I built my my go to training AMMO for nine milton. But it's certainly like full power at least it's not a it's not a powder puff load. It's gonna have some recoil to it. Well, And the other reason why I mimiced that more, that more potent load was for knocking down plates in competition pistol shooting, as one fifteen grain loads don't always single tap knock down plates. One seven grain loads I have found very reliably knock those plates over. All. Right, So before I dropped this out and we had we get back to more of a conversation instead of show and tell. So there's this part right here, five five six head case stamps and water weight and grains. So Nick, you you remember me telling you that, like for my quote unquote precision five five six rounds with seventy seven Grand match kings, I still use range brass. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not in an in full disclosure. I recently bought a couple of boxes a really really expensive, pretty nice Peterson brass from my three away Winchester. I'm not spending this kind of money to load up a bunch of seventy seven grand match kings for Adam an ar Ra in a rack grade ar It's not. You're not gonna see you're not gonna see worthwhile results from that. But however, bearing in mind that my local, my local range has a lot a lot of police officers on it, and you can reliably get certain headstamps in very high volumes that have only ever been shot. One time, I decided to do something that someone had taught me a long time ago, which was, if you want to compare a bunch of different cases and you want to make sure that you have approximately the same volume. Now, this isn't going to have a gigantic effect on the net result of your rounds, but if you just want to like right size to make sure that all these cases have approximately the same internal volume, which does contribute to the end velocity and the standard deviation between your minimum and your maximum. What I was taught was you plug the primer pockets with In my case, I use sold canard to RTV because I turned these into my done rounds. Anything to work, Yeah, I mean I have heard some people say just leave the primer, leave the spent primer in them, but I've always been a little bit I've always been a little worried about that because like the likelihood that water could seep into that primer pocket to fill it inside the primer. Bear in mind that primer should be pretty much sealed in the primer pocket air tight, so it should it should air lock itself, but I am paranoid about things. So I filled. I filled the primer pockets up with silicon RTV. You fill, you put, put the round on your scale zero it. Fill it to the brim, just to the absolute top of the neck with water, and make sure it's not like you know, I forget what's called the meniscus, where it's like beating over the top of the case. Don't do that. You want it dead, even on the top. And then weigh it again and record to that and doing that, assuming you're using either a whole bunch of cases that have been once fired in your firearm or they've all been resized. The point is that you want the outside dimension of the round as perfectly as perfectly similar across all these carts, these different case heads as possible. So you want the outside dimensions same, You want to trim to the same length. You want them all dealt with the same, so that what you're really measuring is the internal volume remaining. And that's what I would That's what I measured using the the the weight and grains of the water that the cases were filled with. So what that exercise taught me was that lake City I ami brass, WM A brass and FC is all within like a couple tenths of a grain, very considerably close. Yeah, and this especially for for like a semiano. Yeah, proud text and saying always size and trim them first, because obviously for a few consistency Yeah, especially if you're talking about like range pickup brass that didn't necessarily come out of your gun or didn't come out of the same chamber, then you could be introducing external variants there, which is going to influence your final measurement. Like you have to treat this like a bit of a science experiment and control for as many variables as possible. D three V arms. You are very You are not just late or fashion late. You are like an hour late. But this this is on YouTube and rumbles. You can rewind back to the beginning and start all over later. So what Phil's illustrating here is not just that they hold the same weight and water. It's that the volume of the cases is dramatically similar. To each other, with a few exceptions. With a few exceptions, but no point. The point of that is that because the volumes of the cases are similar or as similar as you can get them, your pressures generated for the same weight of powder will be closer to the. Same amount of pressure. Yeah, the similar pressure curve. Now what I came away with though, was a couple of Now I don't have it marked on here. L two A two was a full grain low lower than everything else, which I just I load those for like my bulk planking AMMO. But when I'm voting seventy seven grand match kings, I intentionally exclude those. But there's several other case stamps I intentionally exclude. Wolf is one of them. Yeah, Wolf is the so el tie two A two. I'm not sure if it's the web or whatnot. Like i'd have to section a case very carefully to look for dimensional differences. That I do have some, I'll run them through the uh the wire E d M machine at work and send them back to you. I'll have to find some that don't have primers in them, because right now I'm working through a whole bunch that are primed. Oh okay, but the next the next time I get one, I'll grab that and uh probably a lake city or something is comparison point or maybe an throw it in the nickbox and I'll cut it in half. After spring, after summer vacation. Yeah, But the thing of it is that what what I noticed was that L two A two was a little bit low on the water weight, which means that something in the web or something's a little thicker than everything else because it's it's thicker therefore less water weight. And Wolf is the opposite. Wolf is really thin. Wolf is really. Thin until you get to wolf pistol brass. I got a bitching point about that. Yeah, But in any case, to me, like what I what I recommend this for, or if you buy a box of really expensive brass, or if you have a bunch of lapua, or even if you have like one hundred of the exact same case head from the exact same run of cases, like there is a point at which you're chasing ghosts going down these roads. But to me, if you want to load more consistent than average AMMO using whatever nasty range pickup bowl crap you can get ahold of your local range, an exercise like this does help to right size all that rifle brass together. Now, for pistol brass, I don't think it makes enough difference, But I'm not trying to make like tiny little groups with a pistol because I can't shoot that well. Except for the types of pistol cases that have a bulge out in the bottom of the case. I wish I would have grabbed one, grabbed a picture of one while I was going through. In sorting cases today, there are a few case head stamps that you will find, especially in nine millimeter, where you the case walls come down, step in, come down again, and then come. Across the primer. You know the flash hoole of. The primer that dramatically changes the volume of your case and wimadically increase the pressure of your nine milimeters rounds. I have seen that cause detonations. Wait a second, are you talking about like the outside looks fine, but the inside is like there's a shelf inside outside perfectly. Oh, I have seen those. The inside is stepped in and on some of them it's as much as like thirty thousands. Of an inch. Oh, it's first side. It's it's dramatic. It's noticeable with like naked eye. No, don't have to look at a hard or anything. You just glance down the case and it it almost The first time I saw one, it looked like it'll look like a double charge of powder when you drop the normal charge in nick, you've had this experience of picking up range brass and you have like case in the case, case in the case. Have you ever had a case in case nine mail? Do that a lot? No? Oh? Yeah, I've had a forty and a forty five in an Oh Jesus, I'm not going to make the obvious reference about a type of a social video that involves like things inside of things inside of things in threes, But it was like that. Raggle's right blazer is very famous for having those step cases. So is Wolf. I guess sometimes Tula as well, depending on the Tula batch. So just if you guys pick up range brass like I do, like Phil does, if you got a buddy like Stuart that sends you a big case of brass at the very least when you're going through and deep priming those and inspecting them before you run them through your tumbler, just set those aside, not necessarily junk. If you get it enough to make a pet load for it, it's fine junk it. You could junk it. Usually those cases split pretty quickly anyway, because they're extra. Thin on that upper section. I smash them with a hammer because I don't want to load them, and no one else should either. Dogging me out in the comments by the way, saying, so you did all of this in caps and never got into next size and returning correct. Okay, Ragle, here's the thing. If you're if you are using generic range pickup brass and a semi auto, next sizing and tuning really are not going to make that much difference to you. They're really not. I encourage you to prove us wrong. Yeah, if you if you can prove us wrong, that's fine. If you are in the caliber of shooters where you are, say, to the point where your shooting will be disrupted by a slightly looser neck tension. I'm I'm not. I'm not that good. I'm just not. If you are great, do that. We were we were discussing in the Patreon chat this morning. Some of the guys when they load their rounds, they leave them ten thousands longer, and then the day before the match or the day of the match, they see them that extra ten thousands, So there's not an oxide layer holding the bullet into the neck. And creating extra nec tension. I personally do not believe it creates enough tension to alter. That round in a notable way. I wrong, do not believe I shoot well enough that that is what's gonna knock me out. That was my next point too, is I know I am not a good enough shot for that to be the variable that kills me. It'll be my powder measure, throwing a tenth of a grain heavy and giving me an extra like forty feet per second. I mean, dude, I was doing backflips to get like just over a half ma load out of a hunting rifle. I am not the person who is going to be making point two point three ma shots. And you could, I could have you doing it. I'm sure I could, but I can get you doing it. But the point remains, there's a lot, there's a lot of tightening up on the loose knut behind the tree that has to happen before turning. The next is what's gonna do it? I just look, do could all of these things matter at the highest end of marksmanship? Probably, I especially at very extended ranges where every foot per second difference between rounds matters. Look. I used I used to know an F class shooter three away Winchester at one hundred yards or at a thousand yards. This this this guy took his brass prep to a level that would make most of us light our houses on fire out of frustration. Probably, But when you're shooting three away Winchester at a thousand mother e fing yards, it matters when you're shooting, when you're competing at the level he was, It matters when you're when you're when you're competing, not competing at the level I'm not, it doesn't matter that much. I wasn't qualified to carry this guy's range bag you. So that's that's why every time we have these debates and somebody's like, well it matters, I'm like, well, hunter, yeah, it absolutely matters. But the the the tenths or the hundreds of an ma difference it makes are going to be completely overshadowed by the loose nut behind the trigger or by the quality of the barrel in your rifle. Yes, I mean, because look, those guys that are shooting those tider groups at that distance, they are changing barrels often because they're worn out. Okay, so not even two mo own Horn and Nick and I were talking about this right before the show started, and probably right after the show started. Maybe I'm just mega jaded and maybe I have way too many friends that are way too good of a shot. But like to me Clover, leaving four shots together at one hundred yards doesn't feel like a massive accomplishment. It is with factory Ammo. No, I know, I know. What I'm saying is do you have to be a good shooter to do that? Yes, you have to be better than average. We were Phil, Phil brought up in the Patreon chat earlier, you know what do you think the average shooter is capable? I still need to go back and see what the consensus was unless you have it. We didn't have one. Everybody was it just was it a bar fight? Well? No, it was, well I said, I said that. You know, so a standard like pistol torso target, like that bit two by three foot sheets you grab out the range, I said, twenty five yards with an open sided pistol. The average shooters all over that paper with maybe a couple off paper. That's your average shooter. That's depressing. Man. I've been to a lot of public ranges and I've seen a lot of targets coming in and the group sizes are dramatically large, and that's slow fire on a square range with static targets. I told you the story about the first time I went to my concealed carry permit and like I was giving the I was giving my friend the the instructor's side eye because he backed the target up to five feet and said, okay, fire, fire your rounds, and I'm looking at him like that's it, Like I could, I could? I could. I could reach out over the table and almost touch the target. And then I found out that a couple of people had to reshoot, and I was absolutely stunned. Yeah. I was like, there's there's no rat. Now you shoot at five ten and fifteen feet, so five yards, three five and seven yards for the Illinois class I think in Louisiana it's five ten and fifteen feet, which just five yards. I was. I was stunned that several people had to reshoot and all you have to do is just keep your rounds on the torso target. Yeah. Some instructors are really really pushed in the boundaries of what's acceptable, and they say, if you get on paper, that's rough. Yeah, don't so. The the question I asked and you didn't never answer. It was so for rifle shooting at one hundred yards? Are you talking with a scope? Are you talking with irons? In this case, it was with a scope twelve x. With a scope, with a twelve x scope, I would think an average shooter with no training should be able to throw three or four inch group at one hundred yards. And I do not think that that. I don't think that is underestimating or overestimating them. I see a lot of people. I have seen a lot of people at one hundred yard rifle range bringing six inch gongs consistently at one hundred yards not terribly. Difficult to do. So what you're telling me is that my yard stick is just perpetually screwed up by the sheer number of really good shooters. I know, I think it really is. I think it is because when when I went to my latest concealed carry renewal so standard target, ipsick. Kind of target. You know, the A zone is like this, the B zone is like this. I raced through my mags. I raced through as fast as I could, my ten rounds at three, my ten rounds at five, and my ten rounds at seven, just just ripping the trigger just because I know I put all of my rounds mostly in the A zone, with two in the B zone, shooting as fast as I could. Could I have kept them all in the A zone in probably like a two and a half for three inch. Group, Yes, yes, I could. That's not self defense shooting in my opinion. You're not taking your time and making a perfect site picture every time. So funny anecdote before we move on to the last couple of both points. But the first time that I got my kids stil carry permit, I was about this close to having to reshoot. Mmm, because at that five that five foot mark, I was mag dumping into the target. It's five freaking feet on a torso target, one hand offhand upside down. Let's do this, dude, freaking rage Harles could have put all of his rounds on target. I mean, it ain't that dag. I'm hard, but I discovered something worrying when you shoot at a paper target at that range and it's like hung at the top of Yes, so halfway through that first magazine, that paper starts to do this. It doesn't starts to stand right up. You start losing targets. Yeah, so I had to very quickly back off the trigger. Let it flat back down and like pace myself after that funny story. Things you don't think of when you're like, oh it's five yards, who could miss this? Well exactly, Yeah, the muzzle blast will blow the target up. Yeah. Well you know, the things you learn the hard way. But anyway, so we talked through load development. Now warning signs I got, I got three and you're probably you're probably gonna agree with me on all these. Mmm. So first and most first and almost obviously, your primers are going to tell you when you're pushing your luck a lot of wins. Yes, So I understand that like the edges of a primer, they got a nice little radius to them, and you should still see that radius for the most part when you're done shooting. You should. Yeah, in most cases. Yeah, if the primer flattens, meaning like the the the nice radius edge of that primer starts to look like a right angle in the primer pocket, that's that's a hint. Get a little high. If if you actually see the primer looks like almost like it melted out of the primer pocket and it starts to overlap the back of the case head just a little bit, that's another warning. Sign. If it starts to push your firing pin back into your bolt, you need to stop. Yeah, that that is your final warning that you are done horsing around. Is that if the very center of the primer has a dibbot almost like in the shape of the hole in your bolt that the firing pin pokes out of, it looks it looks like it has a little orifice in the prime in the the in the primer cup. That is your last That is your final imitation to quit screwing around before something really unfortunate happens to you. Correct, because you're about to You're about to pierce that primer. Yeah, and piercing the primer is not the worst thing that could happen, But it's bad. It's not good. It's not good. The worst that could happen is spontaneous disassembly, kinetic rearranging of the parts of the firearm. The other two things. So I find, at least in my experience, and you may have had this as well, but like usually your group's like you mayber how I was talking earlier about how with with my rifles, the group size get smart smart smarts start to get bigger, bigger, bigger. When the group size starts getting bigger, Like to me, there's not a lot of reason to keep going a lot higher unless you're really really low in a load ladder and you think you have enough rang you have enough room to get back into another load and get back to that second node we were talking about earlier. I like, for my three way Winchester load, I didn't hit that. By the time I got to that best load, I was close enough to the max I was not going to get to the next node before something unfortunate happened. And that might just be that powder's only node of accuracy for your fire up. So when the group size starts starts doing this, I mean, there's probably not a reason to push a lot harder. But that's also that's also a hint. And the third one, the one that's worrying, maybe a one of one experience. So when I was doing load developed for my three seven Magnum, apparently I developed a death wish and part of the data is notoriously in my experience, notoriously conservative. I would agree with that, And I loaded to the maximum of what Hornity says you can load H one to ten, and I was having a lot of fun I was making a fireball about this freaking big out out of my four inch barrel. I was beating the piss out of freaking steel with the range. It was a nice accurate, small grouping for a three seven magnum load. Made a hell of on a noise, but a great big old smile in my face. It was moderately arousing. I was having a lot of fun. And then the devil popped up on this shoulder right here and said, imagine how much more fun to be if you went a little bit hotter. And then there was supposed to be an angel over here, but there was just another devil saying, oh no, no, no, don't go two tents of a grain hotter, go four tenths of a grain hotter. That's a big jump on a pistol load. So I start, I start shopping reloading data, and I realized that Hodgton says you can go a lot hotter than Hornity does. So I start loading them up and I take it out to the range, and I start with the verified safe load already shot has a kinetically just some of my gun, and that's a lot of fun. And then I put the next six of them in there. This is two tents of a grain hotter than Hornity says is the limit. And I shoot those and the fireball is bigger and the noise is more and it's even more fun. And then I put the next six of them in there, and this is four tenths of a grain hotter than Hornedy claims, still within boundaries according to this other reloading data. And the first shot I heard through ear protection. I heard my gun making a new noise. You heard the frame ring. It sounded like a ringing, And I thought to myself, well, this is a weird time for tendat is to pop off, because you know that is what it sounds like. Been around aircraft a lot, you know, loud music sub were for competitions, lots of barely muffled engines in my youth, like my ears are shot, so I just naturally assume, like, oh, I'm here are things drop the hammer, get heard the same noise again. Pop that cylinder open, Pop those rounds out looked at the primers, and those two primers I have popped were the flattest sons of bitches I've ever seen in my life. The six that I shot before that, they looked all right, but this is this is one of the ringing firearm is probably a ringing ruger, is probably a bit of a unique warning sign. But I will really only give it in revolvers, but I will I will give you all this as a warning. And this was this was told me by several old hand reloaders that there are certain piss, certain powders that are notorious for blowing guns up, not because they're bad powders, but because they're really good powders, Because like three seven magnums are forty four magnums or four four casoles that take when two ninety six and h one ten and you drive the they will drive a bullet harder and harder and faster and faster, and the group will get smaller and smaller, and the round just works. The harder you push it, the better it works. Until you go one tenth or grande too high and blows the gun up. Yep. And that's where that's where I was flirting with at four tenths above the published maximum. I was at the point where the gun was making noises and the primers were as flat as they could be. So I would take that as your warning. Sign and you know, yes, this is a kind of a funny story, and it's a revolver anecdote. But in a semi auto, if your bulk carrier is slamming into the back of the receiver, if you start to see funny where marks on your semi auto, if the if the slide is beating the dog hugshit out of the back of the frame, if the If a semi auto suddenly starts to work a lot harder than it normally would, that's a hint. If your semi auto starts randomly ejecting live rounds out of the magazine out on the top of your slide when it's cycling back, you're cycling it way too hard and you need to back off. I've had that happen twice. Now, Also two other things, since you've got me thinking about it. Ejection pattern. Mm hm. Now, two things about ejection pattern. First of all, as you load hotter and hotter and hotter, you will watch that ejection pattern start to change direction. Yep, but that only tells you that the action's running faster and faster and faster. If the ejection pattern, ever starts getting really inconsistent, I encourage you to stop what you're doing and think about why, because certain firearms are kind of notorious for having a really boringly consistent ejection pattern. So if you start getting if you get around, ejects that way and then this way, and then that way, and then straight back over your shoulder and then straightforward again, and it's just it's like a shotgun. Something is not going right. Something's up. Either your powder charge was just wildly inconsistent, or you're getting really really unusually uneven burn, or you had some moisture in your cases, or something's goofy if you're getting that much. Because when your injection pattern is all over the place, that to me, that's two things. Either a your ejector is your ejector or your extractor are jacked ye mechanical problems, or your pressure and velocity are wildly all over the place, because that's influencing how fast the action runs, which is going to influence where that brass goes. So like all those things, how your firearm's behaving is going to give you a warning that you're doing something you probably should think twice about. You know, the last one here that I did mean to bring up and Stewart brought it up. You can sometimes see when you get to very high pressures, you'll start to get a ring on your brass. Down yep, down here by down here like right aboup. So just just above your ejection injection or your extraction ring. So thank god I have a pen. So in this case, you know, this is your neck up here, this is your case head. The case web, which is kind of like ostensibly about the thickest part of the brass. It's the bottom, Yeah, it's the case. It's down in this area right above that web is where you will start to see that bright brass ring developing around it. And that is because what's happening right there is that the brass is stretching, which means the minute you see that ring, probably the next thing that's going to happen is is that case is going to it's going to a case head separation. Yeah, the bottom of the case is going to go backwards, the front's going to stay where it is, and it's exciting. Usually exciting is a good way to put it. Yeah, I mean sometimes the gunnell cycle just fine. And if it's a semi auto jam another round right up into the back of that case and then you're really jammed up. Don't try to fire that round. Hopefully it won't go into battery. It shouldn't. If it goes into battery, we have a whole nother different set of questions to ask. I have seen an AK suffer a neck separation from the case. Heavily reloaded case. And jam the neck up into the rifling when it cycled home. Uh. And fortunately the guy felt something was weird and he tried to extract the round. We had to mortar that bitch to get that round out of there. And then looking in with flashlights, Huh, that's weird. There's a giant chunk of brass in the middle of the barrel. Oofta. Yeah, you know. It was a clapp old ak that he was running. I would call them. Abused cases that he had reloaded many many times. It's the only time I've ever seen a case neck come off. Usually, if you have any kind of case separation, either the whole case splits or you get a case head separation. Yeah, that's usually what you see in pistol brass. It's almost always a split in the. Case up near the case mouth from being overworked. Don't know how he managed it, but he did. Fortunately he did not fire the weapon. It would have been bad. I can only imagine it would have led to a bullet being jammed in the barrel and possibly destroying the barrel. Potentially maybe not like. Explosively destroying the barrel, but definitely causing a bulge in the barrel. H Yeah, just a stuck projectile. Not good. So any other warning signs you can think of, like those moments in time where your gun and or you're aimedition is telling you loud and clear like you're doing something that's a little bit dumb. Unburnt powder in your action. There's a good one. If you find what looked like what looks like the powder that you dumped in the case laying down in the action of your firearm, you have something seriously going on and you need to evaluate what's going on. It's usually not an over pressure round. It's usually moisture in your powder, or moisture in your prime or a critically underloaded case, which will. Also be a critically underload case yeah yeah, which would also be a big problem. Yeah, which can also give you that that weird ejection pattern. It can give you wildly inconsistent you know, velocities by because I mean I had then in thirty eight special where I was getting not a ton but enough unburnt flake powder. That was obvious. Yeah, And it wasn't moisture in the cases in that case. It was just the fact that I'd loaded this case to the bare minimum and there's so little powder in them and so little pressure being developed that like a little bit more powder and crimping the crap. Out of those bullets into the case. That solved the whole problem. Yeah, getting them to burn a little bit better. Yeah, So now what was helpful? Take judicious notes, Yes, take judicious notes. Do your research on the different loads before you start, because like Phil found this manual pretty conservative. We can go a little hotter, well turned out the next going hotter probably too hot. Yep, you know it. If you get yourself, say Hodgkin powder, go to Hodgkin, grab their load data. Go to Hornity grab their load data for their bullets for that Hodgkin powder. Then go to Linemen grab their data for that same powder. You collate all three of those, you see where they overlap. If you stay within that overlap, you're in a really safe place. Because it worked for three different companies, and three of their lawyers have all said, yep, this is fine. So I will push back gently on what Rag was saying about get a cronograph. I literally refuse to buy a chronograph for so long that someone who shall rename name nameless that wasn't gonna name him Stewart literally sent me one because he got so pissed off that I wouldn't buy one myself. Look, if you are, if you are doing any kind of accuracy chasing with rifle rounds, a chronograph is going to be one of your best friends because it will show you consistency at the barrel, even if you are doing bad things on the target. So I will just say this much I would put it. I would put in the realm of there's a bunch of things to consider before you get a chronograph. I agree, because you can do an absolute ton of reloading before the chronograph becomes a thing that holds you back. And I agree. Now, the chronograph has been helpful, especially when I started like getting off the beaten path push you know, like looking at old obscure data, pushing the limits a little bit, the chronograph became really really helpful. But I mean, hell, I reloaded for years without one. If for pistols, it is less relevant in my opinion. Can you and did I make use of my chronograph to mimic a load? Yes? I did. It was extremely helpful in that I was able to tune my velocity right into the average range of federal HsdS. Yeah, awesome, fantastic. I probably could have got pretty close to that just by feel of the recoil mix. Mix a HST and one of mine and an HSD in one of mine and shot all four. And if I couldn't tell the difference, that's probably close enough for most people's training needs. I wanted to go further than that. If you are just loading like late knocker five five, six fifty five grains, do I think you. Need a chronograph? No, you don't. Now find some published load data, Find a load that cycles reliably and doesn't show pressure signs, and you're probably okay. Now I did earlier, say get organized, and I will double down on get organized, and not just so. Something as simple as a composition book is a good start. I literally start off with just sheets of paper with the loads that I the loads that I found work the best, tucked into the AMMO cans with the AMMO and then I collated all of it together there. But like have a method of keeping track of your pet loads, have a method of keeping track of the load development you're doing, the latter loads you're testing. If you load like I load, all my NIME is loaded with the same bullet, with the same powder, with the same primer, I've got thousands of them. I don't have to keep track of what was this loaded with, because if it's in a can, I know what I loaded with. But when I start playing with those other powders, those other bullets, I'm gonna have to get really judicious about putting notes in the cans to say this is what this is, and this is what this is if for no other reason than sanity so and more than that. And this is something I ran into recently when I really claimed my reloading space. But I was literally finding brass that is not in the big bolt container that is like ready to process, and it didn't have primers in it yet, because I know if I primed it, it is rate to load. Yea, it's in the middle somewhere in between where I think I sized it. I'm not sure if I watched it yet I don't know what's been bell mouthed. Yet, I have no freaking clue what I was doing with this brass two years ago. I have lost that. My failure to stay organized, or letting my organization rely on my memory, which was a stupid idea, has now come back to haunt me. So when I say stay organized, I mean find a method of or keeping organized about what what you're doing, what this brass is, for what step you're in, however you do this, organization is key. Taking notes is key. You can A chronograph is a nice to have, a nice thing. A progressive press is a nice to have. There's a lot of volume of your shooting. A huge deck of MTM cases to hold all your bullets and make them look pretty is a nice to have. A wet tumbler is a nice to have. There's a lot of nice to have, but a lack of organization will ten out of ten screw you over in this hobby one hundred percent of the time. I agree. I started out using an Excel spreadsheet, and just because I had a laptop and I was already watching Stargate SG one while I was making AMMO, so I had I had a screen right there to pull up the Excel sheet on printed paper slips, index cards, dope. If you got dope cards that you're done using because that dope data is no longer relevant. He'll use the backside of that. That is the eirth thing I have to find, so at cards. Okay, So in the name of full disclosure, and then we're gonna move over onto this last since I'm laying I'm laying bear all my freaking gun related sins tonight. Apparently if you never made dope cards, no no, no, don't beat me the punchline, nick, I made a dope card for my three away Winchester, and I went one step further and I actually got downloaded like a copy of the Radical and marked the subtensions in there for ranges for drops, and then I marked the lateral subtensions because like not not not exactly a state secret, but like the the average dimension from shoulder shoulder of a grown man is kind of a known average quantity, and it's not hard to figure out, if you do a little bit of math, at what distance this is in those subtensions. So basically I can use it for improvised ranging. So I turned this radical and built a visual dope car that told me that if the if a person's shoulders are between this subtension and this subtension, they're approximately this range, and that is this subtension in your vertical drop. I built one of those. I've freaking lost it. Have no freaking clue where it went. Printed it out. I thought it was with my rifle, but guess what it's not. I think the reloading monstrate it. Well, that'll happen. I mean, look, I because I live in an area that has quite quite wild temperature swings. We have minus forty most winters, at least once or twice, we have one hundred to one hundred and ten, so that's one hundred and fifty degree temperature range. I build dope. Cards for temperature and for barometric pressure at temperature if I can, if I get convenient days with slightly different barometric pressures, you can use maths. To estimate those, and I usually try to indicate on my dope cards whether these are estimated calls or confirmed calls. So like, for instance, I have my thirty odd six if it is thirty degrees outside, I have a dope card for thirty degrees at three different barometric pressures. I have one for forty degrees at five. Different parametric pressures because I've happened to be out there five different days with five different parametric pressures and confirmed those drops. Does it make a huge difference for like, say, a hunting load. Not really, No, not really. But I'm trying to play a game of darts at three hundred yards against my coworker who is a far better shot than me. You're damn right that half inch difference and drop at three hundred yards. Makes a big difference. That's fair, And it all depends on your application. I would recommend, at the very minimum, if you're trying to put together a high precision rifle load, to try and get dope data and chronograph data every twenty degrees, every twenty degrees if you're trying to get really serious about your accuracy, because twenty degrees will affect your velocity very measurably. So now, in the opposite of things around this, hell, what was maybe not helpful but less helpful in this pursuit of like I'm doing load development, I'm trying to find my pet load my pet favorite recipe was what was not helpful? We already talked about how like tuning the lead or the overall length of like certain bullets ended up being completely unimportant. Yeah, now another bullet, maybe like the horny elds the amas hell. For all I know, there could be one hundred bullets out there that are picky as hell about overall length. But in my fear, soft point hunting rounds are very. Picky about bullet jump in in my rifle at least. But I will say that like in my experience, and I didn't know it until I tried it. See, your magikins don't really seem to care, but you still have, but you still have to try it to know it doesn't matter you do. And I thought they really didn't care for my rifle until I found the one spot where it really made a difference, and it was a noticeable difference. Stewart brings up a good point. Listening to fuds at the range not helpful listening to I would. Say, how do I want to phrase this taking someone else's pet load as gospel and not verifying it yourself. Yes, that's what I That's what I was trying to go to, Like, do not assume that my forty two and a half grains at two point eight oal for my threeh eight with I'm forty sixty four, is going to shoot lights out in every three eight Winchester rifle out there. It will not. It probably won't shoot. It probably won't shoot as well as mine does in any other rifle, and it might shoot better in some but. It's probably will shoot better in some, just just with the odds. Yeah, but you know, I. Biggest thing that helped me out was shooting bags. To help stabilize the rear of the rifle. That made the biggest difference in me trying to do load development for two reasons. One the gun was more stable and I wasn't chasing my errors. And two it's just more comfortable. For long term shooting. You're not there's not as much strain on your body while you're sitting there and putting one hundred drounds downrange. Bullet selection matters a lot. Powder selection matters the most in my opinion, because there are certain powders for certain bullet weights or for certain cartridges that just will not work. Well because they don't fill the case appropriately. Yep, I'll go with that. I happened into a couple pounds of VIDAVORI in three thirty seven. I want to say it's a not commonly used powder, pistol powder, not even in nine mil where I found some data for it. And my guns never liked it as well as they did pretty much every other damn kind of powder I've tried in it. I cannot make blue dot well in my nine millimeter no matter what I do with it. It's just dirty. It's nasty. It dumps powder in the action, no matter how full I make the case, no matter how I do bullets. Set back just does not shoot all my guns. Yeah, I'm trying to think about what what was not helpful when I start out reloading or when I even got further into reloading, Like, what was not helpful? Oh the thing more guns, The thing I talked about last time. So you and I had this talk last time about how I came to realize that chasing the perfect overall length ended up being a Sispian task with at least with Sierra matchkings because and of course I don't have a bullet handy, but like, because the jacket is formed from from the heel of the bullet to the tip, you always get a little bit of inconsistency with you know, with how how that jacket came together at the very end. Now we're talking thousands of an inch. Yeah, it's it's it's burrs and deformation at the tip that you're dealing with there. This, by the way, is the reason that a lot of bullet manufacturers went to the polymer tip bullets. And it's specifically because you can mold that polymer tip perfectly every single time and it's consistent, and it's it's a more consistent but it's a cheaper way because you don't have to worry about it now. I do know. I have met some guys a shot f class with Sierra Matchkins, and they went so far as to actually get like customs custom tooling built to like perfectly shave down and perfectly form all of the tips those bullets. So they would take a box of factory Sierra matchkings and then they would right size every one of the bullet tips so they were all the exact same length and there wasn't a jagged little bir or anything. They were just they were all perfect in every way. Got around that problem. I literally just took and chamfered the inside of a pipe that I had that was pretty close to the bullet size, so that the ogre of the bullet was sitting at the same place every time in that pipe, and I had that pipe mill to a certain length. And that's why I checked my overall length with on those cr matchkings, because then you're checking on the same point on the curvature of the outside of the bullet, which is where you're reloading. Dye contacts the bullet anyway, And that's what I ultimately started doing was just I set my die based on the dummy round and I stopped chasing overall length because I realized that I realized that for my purposes for this one type of bullet, the thousands of an inch that I was monking around with that dye to try to get them all exactly the right overall length, I was actually changing the internal case volume because the dye contacts at the odive and I was chasing those thousands of an inch that were just the burrs at the end of the bullet. Yeah, you were chasing ghosts basically. Now, was it hurting anything? I would think so, based on I mean, based on the fact that I got subma out of that load. It wasn't hurting anything, but it certainly wasn't necessary either, I guess what I'm saying, Like from my perspective, like in in the pursuit of finding my favorite recipes or finding the best recipes for my for my firearms, I think the thing that was the least helpful, honestly was chasing everyone else's stuff, like trying like looking for other people's loads and then trying to reproduce those loads was not as helpful to me as getting a reloading book, finding a powder that was like roughly in the middle of a range for a bulletweight that I was messing with, and a cartshion I was messing with, not the fastest, not the slowest, just something in the middle of the range where I had lots of margin, and just ladder loading the sob yep, and I agree if if a full ladder load from minimum until I saw pressure signs just never gave me a good group a shitcan that a shit can that whole load find another power powder to play with, because that one my gung just does not like. But I found that what was helpful to me was literally just following standard procedures staying with them, published data, doing your ladder load, doing your due diligence, staying organized. Every time I tried to get off the reservations, say oh, so and so said thirty six point one point five grains loaded at this this very super specific ol was like, that's the perfect load. It was perfect in his rival. It wasn't shit in mine. M h. So that's the best thing I can tell you is like going on the internet, going on like the high Road or whatever forum and looking for the keyboard warrior's favorite loads is going to be less helpful to you than just doing the work yourself. Yeah, it can be, especially because rifle, because barrels are almost a unique item. You're you're almost you're very unlikely to get two barrels that shoot the exact same just because of the nature of the internal stresses and the metals, the manufacturing process, imperfections in the rifling, imperfections in the steel, and how your stock is contacting the barrel, which does make a difference. You know it, they're they're just. There's not a good way to guarantee that your barrel is the same as somebody else's. I would say, I would say, there's no way. I'm sure there, I'm sure I don't like absolutes. I know you, I know you don't, but you're the machine machinists. You're the machinist. But you and I both know you can get damn close barrels. Barrels might as well be fingerprints. They are. They they they largely are because the stresses are individualized due to heat treat and materiological. Composition. Yeah. Position, But I mean you could say that about almost anything that's manufactured. Is like, if you manufacture one hundred thousand of them, will you find two that are exactly the same? Possibly? Not likely? Yeah, I mean look total side note, but like the night Vision community goes through the same thing when they try to when they try to build a set of buyos, because the first problem is you got to find two tubes that look the same. They don't because they well, they're never going to look the same. But you got to find two that look pretty similar because if not, it's going to really mess with the person when they like, one tube's wildly different than the other. That's why it's actually easier to find like a PBS fourteen that's got a really screaming good tube in it because they didn't have to go find another screaming good tube to put on their side to make a buyo. Yep, I don't know. I think. I think that's why a lot of people have and a lot of companies have started going to thermal on one side. Night vision on the other, because it's not so much for conflict. No, it's just a completely different content because now your brain has to try to smash two very disparate images together and to do But the people that can manage it, Oh man, is that? Is that a trick? That'll be a talk for another day. Having never played with night vision extensively, I don't know whether or not I could. Make that work with my brain. I mean, this summer we might be able to test that assertion. We might. Anyway, we do need to go ahead and call it. I have to get on the road in the morning, and I haven't episode to edit in the meantime. But yeah, I don't know what else we really have to talk about in the vein of reloading. We might actually have to like quit fooling around and come up with other topics now that we've mother of god fully fully tilled this field. Yeah, probably I say full until this field. I mean, like I told you, the problem with reloading is like there are a whole podcast, there are a whole YouTube channels dedicated to this hobby. We could talk about this NonStop for months, but I just don't know how much more there is a at like an entry level practical level there is to go down this road on point unless one of the patrons. And we totally forgot to do the admin work. I forgot the admin work. Two oh dear, Well. This time we're gonna do it at the back. This time we're gonna do it on the back of the podcast. You should be a patron. You should buy a disaster coffee, and you should buy a shirt from the Southern Gals. And I'm Phil, this is Nick. This is a matter of Facts podcast. Good Night Everybody, the least professional podcast on the Internet. Good Night, bum Bum bum bum bum