Matter of Facts: When Good Shoots Go Bad

[00:00:03] Welcome back to the Matterfax Podcast on the Prepper Broadcasting Network. We talk prepping guns and politics every week on iTunes, Stitcher, and Spotify. Go check out our content at MWFpodcast.com on Facebook or Instagram.

[00:00:14] You can support us via Patreon or by checking out our affiliate partners. I'm your host Phil Rabelais. My co-host Andrew Bobo is on the other side of the mic and here's your show. So welcome back to the Matterfax Podcast.

[00:00:25] Everybody knows who I am. Everybody seems ugly faced before Andrew is coming shortly after. The gentleman with the nods and the tactical cat, Trek, everybody should be fairly familiar with. And we're being joined by Kirk, is it Kulik? Kulik.

[00:00:39] Kulik. I was like this close. I was this close. That's usually how it is. I mean my last name is Rabelais. I'm used to that getting butchered so I sympathize. I just hate doing it to somebody else.

[00:00:52] But today we're going to try to have a conversation about like the situation that Kirk found himself in recently because like we've taught, we've had shows like this in the past where we brought someone on who had to be engaged in defensive shooting.

[00:01:07] And like in those cases I'm always very interested in like what led up to it, the actual incident itself, the fallout afterwards, the legal fallout after all that. And like my preference is always try to let the guest tell the story.

[00:01:26] You know what I'm saying, Kirk? Because like the last time I was getting shot at I was wearing a flag on my shoulder and I was in a foreign country. Unfortunately it hasn't happened since I came home.

[00:01:37] But like I'm somewhat familiar with that experience of like you know when your adrenaline goes to 11 your butthole tightens up and everything in your body is spring loaded to fight or flight.

[00:01:47] But even for the people that have that experience, there's not many people that have the experience of having to go through the judicial system afterwards. So like however you want to approach this I'm okay with.

[00:02:01] Like I guess do you want to go into like a little bit of your background or do you want to skip that? Where's the beginning of this story? Hit me with a question. Okay.

[00:02:12] So I know from us talking before you mentioned that like you're not brand new to firearms. You do spend some time shooting. You're familiar with firearms. Like what would you say that your level of training was with firearms prior to this incident and why?

[00:02:30] Well, I'm like a lot of guys. You know I grew up got my 22 when I was a kid in Michigan. You go deer hunting. Shotguns 30 at six and a 22. Didn't have handguns till I was 18. Got my first handgun a 22 pistol.

[00:02:47] I was hired and I worked for a man who hired who trained canines to guard businesses. I would say you know I have some experience that but mostly it's clean up dog poop to be honest with you.

[00:03:00] From there I started working in psych and the psych units that I worked on were locked. Psych units. So you know real quick I learned the security was pretty important and people would try to look you up later.

[00:03:18] So I began carrying a gun quite early and that went into working at in forensics. Working with criminally with felons who were judged criminally insane or felons who were faking it trying to get out of that. Worked in a facility here at Valley Center.

[00:03:37] Looked at the wash not counting any sheriffs in a cell block running a program. I worked for DDS. I don't know if you know what that is. That's just a whole other story in between there for a couple years. Where else did I work then?

[00:03:55] I worked for the Department of Corrections for the state of Michigan and I retired from there. All that time I when I say compete not good.

[00:04:05] I don't I go and I shoot a lot of rounds but I go to my range and I was on the board of the range and we shoot sporting clays. We have different kind USPSA IDPA. But again that sounds like I do a lot more than I do.

[00:04:20] I go and shoot three or four times a week but a lot of sometimes I'm playing cards. You know what I mean? Sometimes I play with a joker. It's a social part of my it's just a part of my life.

[00:04:33] So at least from what I'm picking up like would you say that your primary motivation for getting into firearms was or I guess your more recent firearms history.

[00:04:46] Was it more from from an aspect of being able to defend yourself or was it more for leisure about even even Steven? Well I look at I don't want to sound too out there something but I'm into being very prepared. I think bad things can happen.

[00:05:02] That's one way reason I have it. But you know I've always been involved in a competitive and judo. I boxed I had a lot of fights boxing very involved in hockey. So a lot of violent sports. You know to me. And so I'm just a more assertive person.

[00:05:18] But there's the other side of it is like as long as I'm going to train with a firearm to protect myself. It's also became social. You know it's cultural. It's how I grew up. I like to hunt when I was younger.

[00:05:29] I'm really not much of a hunter anymore. I used to. So it's like probably the whole gamut. And these days I train a little more seriously. Of course in self defense. But I you know culturally I'm really worried about culturally to where things are going.

[00:05:49] No I mean that makes perfect sense and I mean I wouldn't want to put words in anybody's mouth but I feel like everybody in this room would probably fall to some degree into all those pots like I didn't grow up hunting.

[00:06:02] The family I grew up in firearms have one purpose and one purpose only and that was defending the family.

[00:06:07] So like you know there there were when I was young like we enjoyed shooting but it wasn't as if guns were purchased for collecting and it wasn't as if you know you were shooting for fun but you were still trying to work on your accuracy and your fundamentals.

[00:06:23] Gun safety and all those things. But like I grew up with that idea that like guns are in the house to defend the family period.

[00:06:31] We we are not we don't have nine millimeter handguns in case the deer tried to mug us and that's not the reason these things are here. But I'm sorry.

[00:06:41] Well but but you know again everybody kind of has that thing like I could say that I grew up in the gun culture only because that's that was the reason why we were in a firearms was to be able to protect the family.

[00:06:53] If there were no guns and there was bows and arrows I'd have those instead like it just comes down to it's the same reason why my family believed in having tools in the garage so you could fix stuff. Guns are just tools.

[00:07:07] We viewed it that way like when I say culturally actually my family my dad was a World War II vet taught us how to shoot with a BB gun when we were real little. It was just who we were.

[00:07:19] You take I'm 68 it's probably less popular than it used to be but you take every day to be practically off school and you go up to northern Michigan and go deer hunting. You know it's just something you did. We'd shoot the 22 in the backyard.

[00:07:32] I just it was just part of life. One thing I will say is my parents really did not like handguns. Not like against anything like legal or something but they would kind of well that's for shooting people.

[00:07:49] You know if you really need it you get the shotgun out you know if somebody's breaking it or something. But there was never like I don't think my dad was shot in World War II had a brace and all that.

[00:07:59] To some degree I think he you know he had kind of seen the he'd seen battle you know he was shot by the Japanese and stuff.

[00:08:07] There was a deep part of him that would do what he had to do but he I don't think he really wanted anymore. You know what I mean if that makes sense. No it makes perfect sense. Yes this is first of all Kirk thanks for coming on.

[00:08:23] This is very important for people to know when all of this was going on well before the finally a jury of Kirk's peers saw the evidence and unanimously said that why is this guy in charge. He's in custody.

[00:08:39] I remember talking to Kirk and Kirk saying all I want to do is make sure this never happens to another person.

[00:08:46] And I remember him saying that and sort of to be on this podcast when you could just be kicking back as you absolutely deserve and not have to put yourself out there and relive the story that's absolutely huge. So thank you for doing that.

[00:08:59] One of the things is you know the line of questioning that is coming and it started with about what happened with Kirk.

[00:09:07] One of the things that I find very interesting about this and is the entire flow of the class that I have called when a gun's not an option.

[00:09:14] And I remember Kirk being a student in the class and I remember Kirk asking a lot of questions because of his law enforcement corrections background. We were talking you know yeah we take off that corrections hat and we wear the civilian hats and the similarities and the differences.

[00:09:30] But one of the things that I just want to hit on with the line of questioning Phil that you had which I think is very important when we start talking about even getting ready preparing for a possible self defense encounter.

[00:09:40] The thing that I find very interesting as I talk about you know today's dangers of social media and the guys the example they used on the federal law enforcement training center of the cop that he had a great career 20 plus years.

[00:09:53] Got into a shooting that was a great shooting. Now it doesn't mean that he did anything wrong but there wasn't a lot of evidence as in the only two people that were involved was the bad guy and the good guy. There wasn't cameras there wasn't this.

[00:10:06] And they found a quote on his Facebook page from many years ago that said I'm the judge jury and executioner. And this was taught down at the federal law enforcement training center to cops or future cops saying be very very careful.

[00:10:18] And I've added it in my class and we talk about knowing yourselves internally and externally. And the thing that got me about this whole case is we get going and I know you've got questions about the day of and the days after is that Kirk's very humble.

[00:10:33] Veteran veteran corrections officer retired married to a retired corrections officer. Corrections officers are the people that keep us safe from those that are habitual or have broken the law to the point that we say you cannot be with society. Correct me if I'm wrong Kirk.

[00:10:52] You are you are a hockey coach. You have taught Olympic boxing to young people.

[00:10:57] When we talk about knowing ourselves internally and externally you've kind of already detailed some things internally like hey I learned that there are bad guys out there when I started working in the psych ward and I've worked in corrections and I've seen the face of evil.

[00:11:10] But when you talk about externally which a lot of people miss is that's how are you perceived by society.

[00:11:15] And the thing that got me about this entire case was that if you want a textbook case of pillar of the community of someone that has no background that would suggest they do things wrong. That in fact has tried to help community out.

[00:11:28] It's kind of setting this story up and Kirk's very humble with his intro but from what I have gathered through the being involved in this albeit on the back burner is every person that knows Kirk through this entire thing said that ain't right because we know Kirk.

[00:11:44] There's no way that that Kirk was the problem person behind of all this.

[00:11:48] But the opponent as we talk about the wagon now the opponent that we have to deal with in the use of force encounter was the person that externally exuded nothing but being a problem for society.

[00:11:59] And so I just as you guys are talking today I've got this notepad in front of me because we're at a point and this is I had to say at the last class I taught the wagon a class a couple of about a month or so ago.

[00:12:13] And we're getting to a point where it's I have to actually preface these classes by saying we're at and Kirk just kind of pointed out.

[00:12:22] I'm worried about where we're going because when we have this Supreme Court doctrine of reasonableness the reasonable person standard which is what would a reasonable prudent person have done a place in the defendant shoes knowing the defendant knew at the time.

[00:12:33] We're getting to a point where it's the upside down and the moment that happens where good people like Kurt go through what they go through it then forces other good people to question the natural law the rights that they have to protect themselves because they become more concerned about the fallout from actually surviving.

[00:12:55] And that is a well known problem in law enforcement where Leo's are more afraid of the consequences of reprimand and so they suffer injury and death in the field.

[00:13:07] And then so this is a this is going to be a very interesting conversation because just right now the checkbox has been filled of okay this is the American this is the American this is us.

[00:13:17] This is the person that trains this is the person that cares about this country.

[00:13:21] This is the person that goes out grocery shopping with no ill will towards another person yet they were involved in a situation that we train for and none of us ever want to be in.

[00:13:31] And then that kind of sets the stage for where we're going so yeah I'm just gonna be kind of sitting here in a back burner and scribbling furiously but I think you know Kirk is a humble guy and I think it's very very important to point out as we set the stage for the story.

[00:13:44] That we all should be looking in a mirror going okay thank God I look like Kirk in the mirror as far as the way that normal society perceives me.

[00:13:55] Yeah and Kirk before I turn it back over to you for tracking Andrew because we've done this before and especially like I've always whenever I we've talked to track and we talk we we kind of Monday morning quarterback use force cases.

[00:14:08] And you know it's never done from place mouse it's always done from a place of like this is what the person did this is where the law would or would or would not have been on their side you know try to learn from other people's experience.

[00:14:20] But the thing I've always told people is I'm like I I being a lay person not having tracks knowledge of the law and of self defense law I've always broken down whether or not you shoot based on one simple criteria.

[00:14:33] Am I prepared to spend six to twelve months in jail and fifty to one hundred thousand dollars to get my to keep to get myself back out of jail.

[00:14:44] Am I prepared to do that and those are just random arbitrary big enough to make you think twice numbers because I tell everybody I'm like if the answer is no then you should try to find another way to deal with the problem other than shooting it.

[00:14:56] And if the answer is if I don't pull the trigger it's not going to matter because I'm going to be dead then you do what you got to do.

[00:15:04] That's that's that's not the legal answer that's the Phil rabble a put this into like layman's terms emotional answer is if we can find a way to deescalate a problem if we can find a way to run away from the fight instead of have to stand there and fight it out then that's probably the best way to deal with the problem.

[00:15:21] And if none of that is an option then I can tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to I'm going to do what I feel like I have to protect myself and my family and I'm going to find out where that leaves me after the fact.

[00:15:33] That's just that that's the way I try to get this across to lay people but I feel like we've chunked between you and track like we've taken a good chunk of your background to kind of understand where you're coming from.

[00:15:45] So like walk us through walk us through like what led up to this encounter. Did you did you and the other party like was there some kind of history or background was there any what happened to lead up to this situation.

[00:16:03] I'll be glad to do that. There's no history. I didn't know them. No no background nothing. I'm living in a small town 250 people. It's divided by a highway. You kind of don't know the people on the other side of the highway to be honest with you.

[00:16:17] So anyways we go 10 12 miles to the nearest town and this is what happened that day. We got groceries and we picked up some potting soil and we're all we're happy as you know we're retired we don't have much but you know we're very happy to come back.

[00:16:31] We come back we're going to plant some flowers. My wife and I shuttle the groceries in typically I bring the last ones and she's in putting them in the house.

[00:16:39] So I have to go out my little front gate around to my car so I don't know if she's going to come back for one more load or not. The three teenagers come by and they say hey guys how you doing simple as that.

[00:16:54] As soon as I said that the one was walking by me spun and like ran into me with his chest had his arms behind his back and swung and punched me in the eye.

[00:17:06] But as he punched me his brother came up behind me with a wine bottle in a little cloth backpack and used it kind of like a so it had a kind of a whipping action to it and hit me right back on the lower part across my shoulder.

[00:17:23] And the third one was pretty big was bigger than me came in from the side punching me and kicking me.

[00:17:32] So I went down on my left side on my elbow and on my hip and I had a pair of shorts with a t-shirt on and I had a little Glock 43 and you know it's like I'm wearing shorts I got this little little gun you know.

[00:17:47] And as I was on the ground I also have well when they did that they gave me a concussion they cracked one of vertebrae in my upper back and my upper neck.

[00:17:59] And I also have had cancer how many times on three times three times and so they have put that shoes my back and he had steel pieces in there taking him with screws in a basket around one of my vertebrae that is disintegrating.

[00:18:17] So I go down and I look stronger than I am to be honest with that workout a lot but I was in a very vulnerable position and they're kicking me one kick me right in that spinal column with that basket that's taking place in my vertebrae.

[00:18:33] The other one kicked me in a rib that is no longer attached to that vertebrae and of course they're punching me kicking me as I go down and my shirt rolled up and the young man who initially punched me came over me and he was like.

[00:18:47] He was punching me punching and then it's it's it's this is uncomfortable it's it's it's creepy he had like a sneering smile I'll never forget this part.

[00:18:59] This happened in seconds and you're some of your memories are so clear like you guys maybe in combat or something maybe that but it's it's so clear and yet it happened so quickly he reached for my gun as I'm being pulled and hit by these other guy.

[00:19:14] I'm on my side and I know I've been concussed before because I box I kind of didn't concuss like I know I'm concussed I've been there before it's not totally strange to me and I'm thinking one more kick.

[00:19:27] And I'm done they're going to get my pistol they're going to kill me my wife's coming out maybe they're going to rape her maybe they're going to kill her I'm being honest with you I was more worried about her.

[00:19:38] You're good yeah I was more worried about her than me. Okay so. What I just had it was about two foot and a half away whatever I reached my gun was on my appendix I pulled it up and I literally came up and fired as it came up.

[00:20:03] And I said to get them off had to stop them they're going to kill me I was going to be in a wheelchair. You know.

[00:20:14] Another thing all this believe it or not all this went through my mind within I don't know how many seconds that was you know I mean you wouldn't think it'd be possible but really is I have a 80 some year old Vietnam vet neighbor who's not the best health and a guy was 92 and they were out in their yards working.

[00:20:32] And I don't know. I'm not trying to be a Bible banger but I've had a lot of violence in my life I've had to deal with thousands.

[00:20:43] I mean a thousand hundreds literally for sure hundreds of fights in the prison I've been stabbed I've been slashed and bashed over the head with chairs things like that so I don't get too shook up and if if that hadn't fallen me I kind of believe spiritually. That.

[00:21:01] I mean. Put there because I think what would happen is they were you know this is projecting but they wanted my truck I believe I have no proof of this the door was open on my truck it was a nice truck.

[00:21:14] You went for my gun they would have got that gun in the back of my truck you know hidden away so as a with us a hour. They would have my truck.

[00:21:25] Pistol my rifle two very vulnerable older people were just down the street and you know I don't I don't how can I explain it I don't take pride I'm not happy that I had to shoot the young man and kill him that was never my goal my goal was to get my groceries you know.

[00:21:44] But I wouldn't change it because I think much worse would have happened to other people and I would have died or paralyzed through my life attack so. You know.

[00:21:58] You know that's what happened and then when I shot the young man they all ran down this they took off he ran about. 75 yards away down the street and fell over.

[00:22:08] And then the real I mean that was a nightmare but then the second nightmare really began after that and that was the incompetence of our small town cop and the dishonesty of the current can I can I can I stop you I mean that's and I appreciate you sharing that that's this and this is there even you and I have talked so many times.

[00:22:31] This is even you and I have talked since this and that deep all that detail we have not gone into because I knew that we wanted to talk with the guys here.

[00:22:43] I find it amazing and then the guys have had me on the talk we talked about the written house case we talked about the Aubrey case which were polar opposites responsibly armed citizenry and I find absolutely amazing that we're going to get into the.

[00:22:58] Sadly not even the trial the trial was a blip on the radar it was all the incompetence in the in the criminal behavior by the government but it's I find it amazing that when you talk about a clear cut case of the use of deadly force being authorized by a threat of serious bodily harm and or death.

[00:23:16] The the the mere fact that the normal you know greeting to a compliant person like we do it every day guys what's going on immediately turns into a violent assault which easily is I mean the rule of disparity of force is immediately there when you're hit with a kinetic energy weapon over the back of the head when you're getting blows delivered to you on the ground.

[00:23:37] You have a superior force as you mentioned teenagers doesn't matter if they're the size of a one a brick shithouse two if there's three of them and I just find that amazing when not to get Phil on a tangent which I know this can happen but if we look at the way your case was initially spun in the media.

[00:23:57] Oh boy oh boy wouldn't it have been really interesting to know responsible citizen coming home from buying groceries it didn't say hit with a wine bottle and stomped into the ground suffering concussion and all sorts of injuries it was shot a teenager.

[00:24:14] That's all shot a teenager well teenagers can kill women can kill men can kill animals can kill it is the manner in which the engagement happens I just I was sitting here hearing your story and it's like this this is once again the textbook reason that people carry handguns is for a situation like that.

[00:24:36] It's not the delusions of grandeur guy comes in gunfight he's shooting I'm shooting we're running around it's going to be the I have this millisecond decision to make that I'm either going to hug my wife again or I'm not and one more kick is going to be the end of it and oh by the way a gun grab situation and it's either going to be me or him.

[00:24:56] I'm the good guy he's the bad guy and someone's going to walk away and it's just it really is amazing to me as we get into what happened I really look forward to hearing the detail of okay now you survived the fight in the street but now you've got to survive getting even to the hospital.

[00:25:11] It's just amazing to me how we need to be prepared as responsibly armed citizens that you can do everything right but the people out there that don't want you to be able to defend yourself will spin everything 180 degrees and you really truly did have to fight to bring the truth to light and that's it really that's that's absolutely incredible to hear it because it's you know even even in the written handguns.

[00:25:41] I mean I can't even start to cite a wine bottle is a kinetic energy weapon multiple opponents that is a disparity of force like these are these are things that have been established that only your attorneys could quote you know the actual people versus but I'm just I'm just amazed that there was even a fight.

[00:26:09] I'm just I'm just amazed that there was even a even a doubt to it. Before we all sat down Andrew I think use the phrase like never has he heard a more clear cut case of self defense and as I'm sitting here hearing this.

[00:26:25] I don't I feel numb like I don't need I can't even muster up you know like I can't even muster up an emotion because I'm thinking was often like there is no way on earth this should have taken a trial and a jury to get to the point where we say that.

[00:26:41] A 68 year old man out number three to one. Getting curb stomped had to use a farm to defend himself and we think that is anything less than a clear cut case of self defense and like not to harp on your age but Kirk.

[00:26:58] The incident you've described I'm 41 by the way the incident you've described would probably hospitalized me being you know like almost almost 30 years your junior quite frankly I know a lot of guys my age that would not have been able to fight through that situation to get to their gun.

[00:27:20] So I mean and from from what we talk about your back story you know like the boxing the combat sports all the time you spend shooting and training like.

[00:27:30] I'm kind of wondering I'm kind of thinking in my head like if it were not for your background and the time you spent preparing yourself for what you hope would never come.

[00:27:43] You you'd probably be dead I mean look I love I love my parents and my in-laws to death but I'm going to tell you that if I crack all four of them in the back of the head with a wine bottle.

[00:27:52] All four of them are down for the count none of them are going to stand back up after that and they're not that much older than you are.

[00:27:58] But they then again they didn't spend most of their youth throwing throwing punches for fun either you know boxing and judo and everything.

[00:28:07] You know it's an interesting point in that too is like I said we live in a small town Hillsdale County that out in the country 250 people but we lived in a much more populous area and worked in corrections I would run into people every saw off and.

[00:28:21] We're prisoners you know usually went OK but I also worked at a maximum security prison and many most people there like they got you they will kill you.

[00:28:33] There's it's guys who like you know cut off their buddies head or you know literally things like that so you go well let's move to a small town.

[00:28:41] You got this kind of mellow existence you know I'm not going to Vegas and putting it all on red you know or anything like that.

[00:28:48] To read a book I like to go to the range my wife and I go for walk sounds like a romance novel or something you know but that's our life. And so you go to a small town and you think well I'm really away from.

[00:29:01] You know real killers who you know I could run into and stuff like that and then you find out that you know this this happened to me here I would.

[00:29:10] I got to say I was I was in condition like white I wasn't conditioned I wasn't an orange or anything like you know condition they only got Cooper. I was I wasn't you know I was just getting my groceries and.

[00:29:24] You know so it can happen now we can. But the two important things there are that I would argue that even amongst the prepared citizen and I know plenty people that argue with me about this I would argue that they're in condition white 95% of the time too.

[00:29:38] Because like coming from coming from the person that did a combat deployment and had to go to counseling afterwards by the way because like hyper vigilance is a thing but like you can't you can't stay at orange you can't stay keyed up 100% of the time.

[00:29:54] The human brain will revolt against that yes so most people that end up in a self defense shooting they start white they might be able to get from white to orange to red really fast but they all start in white because that's our natural state.

[00:30:08] And that's where the human brain is semi relaxed and then for you to have to go from from zero to red line that fast I feel like that is indicative of most self defense situations and it's also indicative of most of them because.

[00:30:24] Because like I've always had this conversation with somebody who doesn't conceal carry they don't understand why we crazy people carry guns everywhere and I'm like here's me in a nutshell if if I'm going to a place where I think I need a gun.

[00:30:37] I'm just not going to go there. I'm a risk averse person I don't I don't like getting into gunfights with people that sucks. And my wife and daughter be with me while I get into a gunfight sucks even worse I don't want any part of that.

[00:30:48] So if I think I need a gun to be safe I'm not going to go there. I carry the gun because I don't think I need it.

[00:30:54] Because I don't get to pick the time and place of my life or death situation somebody else picks that for me I just have to be ready to react. Yeah, that's that is everything you just laid out so. Andrew did you want to jump in here.

[00:31:08] No I mean I basically the only thing I want to say was you know we kind of what you said those we carry firearms not because we're looking for a fight it's and honestly when I carry a firearm.

[00:31:19] I mean I am I am looking I'm looking at hands I'm scanning and looking at body language I'm looking for I'm looking for that possible threat but I'm still I'm still not in like condition orange or I'm still I'm still looking I'm so okay I'm still having a good time I'm still trying to enjoy myself.

[00:31:35] And so it's one of those things where I am carrying a firearm for that just in case situation but I'm carrying a firearm and I don't think it's going to happen to me.

[00:31:43] And that's what and because we don't we don't I don't think anybody walks around with a with you when you're carrying a firearm and you're like today's the day today's it's going to happen to me today.

[00:31:53] It's you walk around you're like well I hope it doesn't happen I mean I'm prepared for that situation in a way.

[00:31:58] But but that's the thing those are we ever really prepared for it because you it's you're not prepared and you're you don't know what's going to happen until it actually happens to you until you get a wine bottle the back side.

[00:32:09] But I really want to I really want to keep us going and like so going back Kirk going back to you got your attack self-defense I mean that's the thing is just like I mean Trek and I and Phil we talked about the written house I mean clear cut self-defense.

[00:32:27] Reading on your story when when I found out that you were found not guilty and reading on reading up on it more and everything it was like wow like hearing some more details I'm like I can't believe this dude like what happened to this you know going down the road so.

[00:32:42] You were attacked you acted in self-defense the guy ran 70 yards away collapsed can you take us through. Sure.

[00:32:52] Well from there it's just maybe 10 yards or less for my driveway through my little front gate my house I was concussed I've later found out that I stumbled into the into my yard and collapsed in the yard my wife came out called 911 she wasn't really clear what happened.

[00:33:12] The police came many memories there are kind of bill or I'm in and out you know because a concussion but our local cop there's three of them he's totally incompetent and also I would say I hate to criticize cops.

[00:33:29] I hate to criticize cops I work you know but he was.

[00:33:35] It was criminal what he did he drove through the crime scene drove back to the crime scene so that's twice never put up a tape the sealed off so he's the OIC he's the officer in charge of the investigation 19 different cops came through the crime scene right they're coming in cars three ambulances drove through it.

[00:33:54] The criminals who attacked me came through and moved evidence their family members came through a guy with a dog 15 other people 19 cops he refused any help the state police in Michigan have a pretty have a real good team that you know would come in to do detectives to investigate.

[00:34:12] He waved them off and he would not allow them to do anything so and then when you see it on video he's literally like rubbing his head to me looks like he's having a like a post traumatic experience.

[00:34:24] A traumatic stress event just in a panic and pacing around and a woman who wasn't there was drunk came from down the street didn't hear it didn't see it she came down and was yelling stuff and pointed up the street.

[00:34:39] And so then he followed her at a run he said can I swear or you're not sweat letter rep okay he said where is that motherfucker it's on tape and then they ran up the street and then I'm laying on the ground our flowers are out my wife center skirts look beautiful I'm laying on the ground she's wondering what's happened she's got the phone to 911.

[00:35:03] He comes in the yard and he's in starts yelling man what the fuck did you do what did you do and he's got his gun out and he's stone cold I know when people are in shock I've been around a lot of violence he's in shock and he's pointing the gun at my wife he's waving the gun around.

[00:35:20] He's waving the gun around you know it's not in here he's not in control of his weapon anything he's way points at my wife who's like five foot two I mean you it's just there's no and he points that me that point sitting up against the pole and without any Miranda rights or anything he starts yelling at me and asking me questions.

[00:35:43] Tons of police are all over so at any rate they transport the young man who died in an ambulance to the hospital they allow one of my attackers to ride with them. They never isolated them like in scout cars you know you keep them apart to question them.

[00:36:03] They let them go back and pick up their bag that had like the wine bottle and their different stuff and pick up the evidence and go home. They transported me to the hospital and in less than one hour with no investigation whatsoever.

[00:36:20] He called the prosecutor who is trying to get elected to because other prosecutors retiring and she wanted a big murder trial. This would be very good for her career you know so no investigation within one hour they charged me with murder.

[00:36:38] I'm injured first career second grade just had a morbid curiosity open murder. Okay open murder means first they have a litany of charges they can go with. They can go with anything first degree second degree excuse me or manslaughter. Okay so it's it's that's what they call it.

[00:37:02] Excuse me I believe that's unconstitutional but that they do that. So anyways I go to the jail the local jail there's two guys running the whole jail two deputies they treated me fine. They were not abusive or you know they were people they were great.

[00:37:19] But they put me in a cell that's actually illegal now I could stretch out my arms on each side and touch the cell. I'm not a huge guy so it's about seven feet across and I paced it off thousands and thousands of times.

[00:37:31] It's 11 feet long and it's hurt you were you did you request medical care were you given Medicare. That was my first question at first I didn't know what was going on still.

[00:37:43] I was in and out even hours later and I was also stunned and like in a state of unbelief injury and having coming down from a concussion. I vaguely knew what was going on happened very fast. So I mean this but go ahead I'm sorry.

[00:38:03] Well no Kirk because you have a law enforcement background and Trek because you have a law enforcement background. Correct me if I'm wrong but like it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize the signs of a concussion.

[00:38:15] Like I can teach my 12 year old how to diagnose that in 45 seconds. Don't the police have kind of like a duty to like if you recognize even a suspect even if you just watch somebody chainsaw a nun in front of you.

[00:38:29] You still have a duty to like say this person's good cus you have to go to the hospital like we'll put you in a cell. I did go to the hospital.

[00:38:38] And I've been diagnosed with that boom and right away they put cuffs on me and they drive me to the jail put me in this little tiny cell which I mean you're in jail but it's a 7 by 11 all cement. I have all these back problems.

[00:38:52] I have a now I have a crack vertebrae and a concussion. So the mattress was really not even what we'd have at the state you know is maybe a couple inches and they gave me a blanket that was about three feet by three feet was full of holes.

[00:39:05] No pillow and they left me in there lights are on 24 7 and it's just one big echo isolation cell and they blast and I mean blast rap music which I did the worst thing ever in this cell the whole time. 24 7 to get you awake. Yeah.

[00:39:25] And so I'm without sleep I'm injured. I was not offered any medical care. And I'm there for 102 days. Yeah, Kirk. I've got to ask the question that that stuff you do in torture. Yeah. What's what is the blasting of the rap music?

[00:39:40] Was there any I mean did anyone get to the bottom of what that was about during the trial? No. Interesting.

[00:39:47] No, no that was not just that I was held illegally without bonds in Michigan according to the Constitution Michigan State Constitution at 90 days you have to either go to trial or be offered by they did not do either one. You can't do that.

[00:40:03] When we couldn't when my lawyers confronted him about that. They said well that's how we always do it. That was their statement. That's how we always do it. They said no that's that's not how you do it.

[00:40:15] So at each step of the way it was it was that kind of action. Then they said well we couldn't do it because my clerk was off work. Well that doesn't negate my rights. You know so is one thing after another. So next what happened is my sister.

[00:40:30] God bless her man. She mortgaged your house. God and they they give me bond finally after 102 days. And but they make a cash bond. Which I do believe is illegal. And it wasn't 10 percent. It was cash bond.

[00:40:46] They had never done that much bond or cash bond in Hillsdale County before. So they did that. And with that I got a tether with the tether that judge Liz name wrote an order said I could go anywhere in Michigan. You know I said stay in Michigan.

[00:41:01] That was the condition. Coincidentally the judge below her who had first seen the first you know the first chart probable cause she is married to the captain who runs the jail. So the captain at the jail changed the name on the bond that was paid by my sister.

[00:41:21] But you can't do that. Change her name and put it in my name. And then she intercepted the conditions of the bond and wrote a bunch of other ones on there without telling us.

[00:41:35] So now if I would go up to the store and get milk at nine o'clock at night one of his sheriffs could be laying for me stop me and then they could get the four hundred thousand dollars because it would be in my name.

[00:41:46] So that I mean that's that's a felony. That's that's I mean well that's yet to be taken care of. So we've already got that. We haven't even gotten to a trial.

[00:41:59] Then the police officer went around to all different neighbors and tried to like you know it's all leading questions to watch it. Oh does he ever get mad to see this.

[00:42:10] Well actually I mean I might as well look at two more but you know I get older people. I might help cut their grass.

[00:42:18] I might help a lady who's who's a widow bringing her firewood and stack it up a little pile for the winner like I'm known around town in our little I do that kind of stuff you know. That's just what I do.

[00:42:29] So he couldn't get anybody to say anything bad about me. So the two witnesses in the trial were the drunk woman who was not there didn't hear anything who came over and was screaming. And you know you always have a screaming woman at every shooting. She was her.

[00:42:45] And then there's a guy who's schizophrenic who lives up at the corner wasn't there and didn't hear it. I had helped him start his business and his father called me. Could I pick up his medication for him. And I went did that. I helped them many many times.

[00:43:01] My wife made him dinner Easter and at Christmas we take them a plate. So he he was said that a lot of really crazy stuff a year later because the cop kept going back to him. And he finally made up this big story on tape a year later.

[00:43:16] And and they use that as evidence. And so it's just a really crazy really. Yeah. And it's I've heard we have talked throughout this process and I'm still just trying not to bang my head into the table for the fear that I have. Yeah.

[00:43:36] I know this is I see Phil. Phil is actually speechless. I'm watching his facial expressions as you're talking because we're all. But yeah. But Trek what do you say to this? I mean like like Hollywood couldn't dream up a script this frickin twisted. No they could.

[00:43:51] No and then I think by the way this is high octane coffee so I'm going to do my best not to start cursing and screaming. But like I'm outraged and I just met you Kirk. This is disgusting.

[00:44:01] Let me tell you this part though that there's always all bad all bad things in life. Many good things come to pass and you have an opportunity to see that. So I'm in this terrible situation. I've got a local lawyer.

[00:44:17] He wants me to just plead and take a 10 year thing. Well I'm going to be something. Yeah. That's a death sentence. So my wife goes no this isn't working. Thank God for her. I've got them. I'm not like anybody else's wife but there ain't anybody better.

[00:44:30] So she gets a hold of a friend of mine Rock and we both rock and I'm both trained with track track gives us the name of Terry. Johnson and Dean Greenblatt and things began to change.

[00:44:41] It took a while but they're from a wealthier suburb around Detroit very high powered attorneys and they took the case for really I mean it was a lot of smoke for me it was a lot of money.

[00:44:54] But they they they could have cut it loose and they did it without track having that kind of knowledge and that kind of looking out for the people and who've taken classes from them and you know supporting the Second Amendment being a true American.

[00:45:11] I would be languishing in prison right now. So you know you you learn who your real friends are who real patriots are who people really believe in the Constitution and the legal I believe in the legal system. It's just it had corrupt people and we have to go.

[00:45:30] You're a better man than I am at this point. Well I remember I remember one of the best and it was I talked and it's funny my recommendations for Kirk and Kirk I would do that for you.

[00:45:42] I would do that for the guys I would do that for any of the people have trained with me. Their their reputation came from word of mouth.

[00:45:50] I actually have only talked to one Terry and it was via I believe text message and basically Terry's response was well he's trained with you so we can't use you basically and I get that like I can't I've trained just so I have to be able to use you.

[00:46:02] I've trained just so I have to be they have to remain objective and bring people in that that are objective and things like that.

[00:46:08] But I remember specifically you telling me I said hey how are things going with the attorneys and you said it's like Wayne Gretzky walking into a to a walk on hockey game with peewee players.

[00:46:21] And you were basically saying like they're slapping around this prosecute prosecutor and and judge pretty well by actually holding the you know knowing the law knowing the Constitution and what you know how it needs to be done properly.

[00:46:33] And I think that I mean that's absolutely great to hear and in the benefit of this story there really are two things one you're a free man and we can have this conversation with you.

[00:46:43] So no matter how mad the story might make you're right the justice system because the justice system ends with 12 jurors of our peers and they were like yeah this is ridiculous why is this guy in custody.

[00:46:55] And it also allows us to then highlight these issues and we can go into it or not but there are avenues that you have to make sure that this slight of not just the law but just slight of being a decent human being on the part of the judge and prosecutor doesn't go unchallenged doesn't go off the record.

[00:47:17] You know and things they did that really offended me. Okay my I worked I look at like I could have made more money doing other things for society to protect people I'm like a protector right. I'm sheeped up. Well my father fought. Okay.

[00:47:40] He was shot by Japanese World War Two going around and embrace all his life. I got to say never bitch about anything. So I get in there and it's bugged me more anything.

[00:47:55] So I got tattoos I like okay but I don't have swastikas and stuff on me but if I wanted to you know that's my body excuse me for getting emotional.

[00:48:05] But one of the things they do is they go you go in and they look at your tattoos photograph they say oh you're a Nazi. So right away they what they try to do is break down everything you are. I believe in the Constitution United States.

[00:48:20] I serve my country. I've worked hard to be a good person to help other people. I'm a Christian. They don't just try to go by evidence they try to defame you.

[00:48:36] They try to paint a very negative picture of you and try you on that emotion rather than the facts. You know and I had to laugh because Terry is African American and Dean is Jewish American. You know what I mean.

[00:48:53] So this Nazi hired a Jew and a black guy to defend him. It's like so absurd but that's where the left is you know and the people who got elected were very conservative county.

[00:49:05] But they say they're Republicans but it's like a closet Democrat that you cannot get elected unless you say you're a Republican and they are not. They're Marxists and they're leftists and they really want to destroy like the woman who's the president.

[00:49:21] The woman who's the prosecutor Dana Nestle is our homosexual what do you call it attorney general under Whitmer who are the very leftists. And this woman is on her advisory board about anti-gun stuff and has a long association with them.

[00:49:42] So they portray themselves as conservatives who are for the Constitution. But that's not that's not what they really want. You know it's very deceptive so we have to be very careful who we vote for you know what I mean.

[00:49:59] That kind of thing another thing every time they would do something illegal in court right. My attorneys would bang you know we do an appeal but that appeals like fifteen thousand dollars.

[00:50:09] And I'm like so now I got my little two bedroom house paid for and my two cars paid for a little bit of money saved. And so then I had to go on mortgage my house so I sold my car sold my gun sold everything I own.

[00:50:22] And this is no resentment at the attorneys they're fantastic and I believe in capitalism they deserve to be rewarded. But you know it took everything so now we got mortgage on my house.

[00:50:34] You know so it's kind of rough but we had to do it because we could not allow them to not follow the law. You know we couldn't allow it and then the last thing we were ready to go to trial.

[00:50:46] That's why it took two years. We're ready to go to trial a week before the trials to begin. My attorneys are very smart they called state police and said yes bodycams what's the deal we haven't gotten them.

[00:50:57] And they say oh we gave them to the prosecutor. Well in discovery they have to give you those. She hid those and didn't give them to us. That's a week before so we couldn't even prepare a defense. So I mean it's so patently illegal.

[00:51:14] And so boom the whole thing gets delayed. You know then we had another appeal and so it ended up being two years and you know why I sound whiny don't I. I don't mean to sound that bad. No but it's. You can do that for two years.

[00:51:28] I like to think you know as a man I compartmentalize my life I'm going to take care of business. But I got to tell you I didn't even realize until it was over we went up to northern Michigan for a couple weeks.

[00:51:39] And I could just feel the tension leaving my body. Do you know what I'm saying? I was under much more you know I used to have a full head of hair. No not really.

[00:51:50] I was under a tremendous amount of stress and my wife you know she is so loving and takes care of me. And I mean I hate it. Yeah. What I did to her was you know that's what kills me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah that's just crazy.

[00:52:15] I mean the fact that I mean the corrupt just the blatant corrupt actions of the judicial system in that area. I mean granted I'm pretty sure that's there people are like and that's what's scary is people like that.

[00:52:29] That's just one county in Michigan like one little town in Michigan which you should be shocked at Andrew. And I mean you you and I are Michigan residents and Phil is not.

[00:52:38] But when you hear the word Hillsdale not a single Michigan or goes oh a bastion of left leaning ideology. No you think of Hillsdale College which is the bastion of the last or one of the last colleges of three free thinking Americans.

[00:52:56] And that is why I am so shocked that you you hear Hillsdale County associated with this case. And to Kirk's point people in Hillsdale better start realizing who it is that they're voting in the office. Yeah. Yep. That's that is absolutely for sure.

[00:53:11] And that's my goal now you know if we were wise we'd move. My attorneys told me you should get out of there could be dangerous. But the money I got I'm not moving anywhere. Mortgages are 7 percent. There's no way if I sell this I'll probably end up homeless.

[00:53:26] I'm not going to do that to my wife. I'm going to I mean we're all going to die. I've had I've still got cancer in remission. I'm healthy I feel great but I'm 68. If I had cancer three times it's in remission.

[00:53:39] I'm not going to be around that long and my wife's younger than me. My goal was to have this house paid for and then she would have you know she's got her retirement she'll have her social care.

[00:53:48] Not going to be rich but how will know that she's taken care of at least you know with housing and you know that kind of thing just very basic. And now this is also you know that's taken that away.

[00:54:00] So I'm working to to rebuild that and you know trucks gone out of his way with setting up the operation Skywalker. Yeah yeah to help me and like so many people men and people. So let's let's talk about that real quick.

[00:54:22] Operation Skywalker I know in the we're going to have it in the show notes. We threw it in the chat as far as the link goes. We're going to share it out with our so we're part of the proper broadcasting network as well.

[00:54:36] So I know I talked to my one of our basically the guy who he runs at James. I talked to him and he's on vacation right now but when he gets back he's going to try to blast it out as well.

[00:54:48] But track kind of talk about Operation Skywalker a little bit. Yeah so a couple of years ago we had an MDFI alumni member has got a son that has got a very rare condition that requires a lot of special equipment just so quality of life can be maintained.

[00:55:07] And and one of the best guys that I've ever met like many of the alumni like Kirk and just people that I've met in my 15 years now with MDFI. And just kind of through talking there was a big purchase.

[00:55:20] They needed a special minivan that had some wheelchair lifts and things like that. And unfortunately the only way to get it is to buy it new which we're getting into the hundreds of thousands of dollars or to try to find one on the secondary market.

[00:55:33] And even the secondary market was very expensive. And so we kind of just through talking his son's a big fan of Luke Skywalker and Star Wars.

[00:55:43] And so what we did was with the help of my beautiful better half we kind of put some graphics together and called it Operation Skywalker.

[00:55:52] And that was a fundraiser where the alumni we tipped over a hat and the alumni put some money in and we were able to give them a big boost in getting that special piece of equipment. And we didn't stop there. So we don't have it active that often.

[00:56:07] And that's thank I mean thank God that we don't have to have it active that often. But when Kirk situation came up I mean there is no greater reason to have Operation Skywalker or just to be charitable even without the need for this fundraising drive.

[00:56:23] And so the moment that the smoke was able to settle and Kirk was able to breathe some stress out as he mentioned when he went to northern Michigan we were able to get a give send go page going.

[00:56:38] And so as of tonight we're at about sixteen thousand eight hundred and some odd dollars and that's with two hundred nine people that have have given. And the best part is that's not anywhere close to where we're going to go.

[00:56:51] We've got a goal of one hundred thousand dollars. Ammo land just got involved. They're going to be putting an article out. I actually just talked with Ammo land today because of the the Supreme Court rulings on bump stocks and things like that.

[00:57:05] They had a couple of things that kind of caused their reporters to have to jump on the reporting but they're going to be releasing a story about Kirk's case here shortly. We've got you guys doing this podcast. It's not over we're going to keep spreading the word.

[00:57:20] And I think what a lot of people need to hear is Kirk's story solely for the reason one great American got done dirty and that needs to be remedied. And of course that's what the money is going.

[00:57:33] It started by MDFI and it's not going to me it's going to go directly to Kirk and Jill.

[00:57:37] The biggest thing though is the media is not doing the story of the job they're supposed to do which OK you can tell the story about a Hillsdale Hillsdale County man that shot a teenager. He's claiming self-defense. OK you didn't do that. You just said shot a teenager.

[00:57:53] But if you look and actually do the follow up the case there's maybe a little blurb saying he was found not guilty doesn't say anything about the actual facts of the case.

[00:58:01] And so once again because the media not doing their job it starts to fall to the wayside. So what we all have to do with Operation Skywalker is of course with things being tough right now and I get it.

[00:58:12] Our numbers are down this year. I mean we're having a good year but it is not going to be a record year. Why because milk is ridiculously expensive. Gas is ridiculous expensive five five six rounds or 50 cents a round if you want a good milspec round out there.

[00:58:27] What we need to do is we need to say hey OK I'm going to help this guy member of the MDFI alumni.

[00:58:32] Maybe I'm not MDFI alumni but I am a responsibly armed citizen and oh by the way that gun that I carry every single day the seat the CPL insurance that I was thinking about getting that could be me.

[00:58:44] It could be me. And if it is truly if it happens to me and everybody else just scrolls by the story and says oh sucks to be Kirk.

[00:58:53] Well that's how they divide and conquer. But if we as a group of responsibly armed citizens can say oh no if a million of us kick in a buck and oh by the way you probably like me have spent a dollar on far more stupid things.

[00:59:06] I mean I know that I have right. If we all say no we're going to kick in a buck and we're going to make this man and his wife as whole as we possibly can.

[00:59:13] Granted that's monetarily you can never get back those days but you can say hey that mortgage don't worry about it. Those cars don't worry about it. We're going to try to get you so you can start to enjoy that life liberty and pursuit of happiness anymore.

[00:59:26] That's the goal of Operation Skywalker is and so I take I take Kirk's story very personally because I can picture myself in his shoes. And I say that as a guy that it was law enforcement was military and I was the guy that for longest time.

[00:59:40] I'm an SME. I teach this stuff to other people and one of my really good friends said hey Trek what if what if they railroad you like this.

[00:59:50] Well I was like holy crap. I could do everything right. And I still might need to have a family of it doesn't have to be actual blood family but a family of responsibly armed people out there saying oh hell no.

[01:00:02] And that's that's what we need to do. It's that divided United we stand divided we fall. We have to take take a local look to a global thought.

[01:00:11] And if we can just get everybody in this country that sees this and hears the story to say I don't have a lot of money right now because it's gas in the tank and clothes on the kids back and food on the table but I can give a buck.

[01:00:21] And if you can give a buck everybody that hears this gives a buck. We're going to make a world of difference and maybe when they're made whole maybe there's some money left over to teach this government that made this a lesson.

[01:00:34] And that's a completely different story for maybe another day. Yeah yeah that's the thing is yeah if anybody can give that's the biggest thing a dollar five bucks whatever not asking you to you know sell a gun and give the whole proceeds or whatever it's just one of those things

[01:00:50] whatever you can do and but that's the thing though like look listen into Kirk and his story and then I keep going back to the written house because that was another just another one that was blatant obvious self defense that was someone they tried to railroad this kid.

[01:01:04] And but the difference between the two that I take away from this is the written house. The whole thing with written house was he was in this area there's riots all this stuff he went down there to try to help and he got in that crappy situation that he could have actually if he would have just stayed home in Wisconsin or wherever that he would never have that would never would have happened.

[01:01:26] You were at home on your property taking care of just groceries from the store and this came on this was on your doorstep like you don't have to travel. You don't have to travel somewhere scary for something like this to happen.

[01:01:42] This can be right on your doorstep and that's where I think some people don't understand is this literally can happen to anybody.

[01:01:49] It can happen to you at any time and so listening to your story I mean and that's the thing is we didn't even get we're not being all the way through your story. I mean especially with the trial and the and then just the after effects of what you're what you've been going through too is something to talk about too.

[01:02:07] But yeah it's something like this can happen to anybody and the operation Skywalker is something that I think it yeah it just shows to get it goes to show you that there are still good people out there that care.

[01:02:21] That's for sure that we're it's when one of our own because we're like I look at the gun community unfortunately I look at the community itself and it's broken.

[01:02:30] I see it as fractured. I don't see it as a one cohesive unit. I mean we're constantly fighting on name brands and all kinds of stupid crap but you would think that's not a story like yours would actually bring everybody together because it's completely ridiculous the idea that these this prosecution and the judges and the police like the cops and everything like they should all be out of a freaking job.

[01:02:53] Oh yeah absolutely. I can't believe like they got rail they railroaded you to the ninth degree so it's just insane to me. Like I honestly I have no idea what to say because it's the story after when I talked to Trek about it and he was telling me kind of keeping me informed a little bit about it as much as he could.

[01:03:13] And then once you were found not guilty he kind of him and I talked a lot about it and I when I started researching it more it's this you your your story as doesn't even what the media has typed up is nothing compared to what your what your story actually is like it's insane.

[01:03:35] And and what things that I didn't and stuff like that. Yeah I think it's very important and people know like you mentioned like once the trial over we really kick this in the gear. Kirk and I've been talking since this happened in fact since Jill kind of reached out and we were to get Terry Johnson Dean Greenblatt involved.

[01:03:56] I can't question those attorneys strategy because it was working and every time I talked to Kirk he's like they are they are winning the battles every single day so that we can win the war. And it's now is the time like there was a time for that battle and now there's the time for this battle and and we're absolutely steadfast and dedicated to helping Kirk out and I would say to people out there and I'm sure Kirk's going to talk about it.

[01:04:23] You know CPL insurance is a thing and it doesn't I'm not a show for any any company there is a I have it and there's there is even when I own a firearms training company and I consider myself to be very level headed and I consider myself to be very educated.

[01:04:37] I've got it my wife's got it because she's got her CPL. You also need to say OK I can't we all live in a an adult world we've got adult bills to pay and adult things to do. And that's why this where we're focusing the energy with Operation Skywalk you don't have to do much you don't have to go and mow Kirk's lawn but if you can give a buck if you can give five you give 20.

[01:04:58] I think Kirk you don't know this but a guy that doesn't know you in Texas gave a thousand dollars a thousand dollars gentlemen courtesy of Phoenix ammunition they shared my initial operation Skywalker which went viral and so thank you to Phoenix ammunition for making that happen.

[01:05:14] But but but what you need to do as a all of us need to do is say OK when something like this pops up get involved when you're sitting down with your loved ones going OK I'm going to do everything right.

[01:05:26] But how do we plug the holes for when things go wrong something like CPL insurance and having a plan also instead of spending you know maybe a week's worth of lattes you know half calf mocha lattes from Starbucks or whatever.

[01:05:42] Give a little bit of money to like firearms policy coalition gun owners of America because they are they are holding these types of politicians to task and in fact they recently just had one with the New Michigan ridiculous will not do anything to stop crime gun registration where they're like oh I think it was Wayne County or something said we're only opening the clerk's office for one hour one day a week and FPC literally just posted on Twitter saying hey our lawsuit printer is spooling up and we're coming in and we're going to have to do this.

[01:06:12] And then you know the next thing that county posted was OK it's going to be open two days two days or two hours every day all week long and it's like these organizations will fight in the trenches when we just can't because we do have things to do but look to this man Kirk who's now you might be listening this listen to him or look on this YouTube channel and put yourself in his place.

[01:06:36] Think of your family being affected and say what if when you asked for help and you did everything right there was crickets. And that's what we know on.

[01:06:46] You know other things that have happened you know there's red flag laws in Michigan now so all they have to do is manufacture makeup something the the cop.

[01:06:55] The cop in my case lied continuously and was caught on the stand with film that showed that he lied for six hours straight.

[01:07:07] Well why wouldn't he if he's willing to do that to kill me literally he's put me to death so he could go from being sergeant to the being called chief and make a buck fifty dollars a dollar fifty more an hour in our little police department.

[01:07:21] You think he would manufacture something about a red flag law and have them bust down my door or your door.

[01:07:29] These kind of laws we have to really really fight against those they sound you know they sound so yeah red flag they're not a good idea at all very very dangerous.

[01:07:40] And I also want to say my fight is not over my friend's no I sound like an insurance. I don't work for anybody but yet some insurance I have it now I didn't have it then.

[01:07:52] But the other thing I want to say is my battle to make sure these people aren't reelected all politics is local okay that's just how it works to get this police officer out of his job.

[01:08:04] He should not be a cop you shouldn't just go to another department he's right that battle is not over I'm not cowed I'm not nobody shut me up.

[01:08:14] Nobody's going to stop me everything legal absolutely legal no kind of threats whatsoever but legally I'm going to push those things and push them hard and I have lawyers who have volunteered time to try to do that to. What would you call the. To get the prosecutors.

[01:08:37] There's a board to a smarter that despite but they look at it and but all those all those things it's not going to be comfortable for them and I'm not willing to just.

[01:08:49] Roll over as an American and lose my God given my natural rights that easily you know so.

[01:08:56] I think myself as a very measured really kind hearted person but very firm in my beliefs and truly a conservative person believes in the Constitution and I'm going to do my best to not let that stay.

[01:09:09] Well there's a time for the there's a time to be kind hearted and understanding and there's a time to put the the old skull and crossbones flag up and just.

[01:09:20] Scorch earth and see what if you can get these people out of jobs out of their positions that they're in and they shouldn't be in then.

[01:09:28] I'm off yeah Kirk I've got a quick question for you that with a Brady violation if he was caught perjuring himself did your attorneys bring up anything about him being barred from ever testifying again because he was found lying.

[01:09:40] My attorneys are super good at what they do and a sign of a good attorney is that they specialize you know they don't they're not going to do my taxes or not.

[01:09:51] And so what they've done is they told me people they're associated with were very good at what they do and they're going to be looking at their hour looking at all of that interest and then there was of course a lot of people who were very good at what they do.

[01:10:00] Yeah I mean certainly not I know sounds silly but I have many friends who are very good at what they do and they're going to be looking at all of that interest and then there was of course no scorn from the judge when when a police officer was found lying in her court or his or her court.

[01:10:17] No statements were made interesting very yeah yeah someone you do not want to be in law enforcement anymore yeah you know you wonder I mean certainly not.

[01:10:27] I know sounds silly but I have many friends who are in law enforcement young man who is my last gold gloves fighter champion that I trained he's now he's he went in the Marines that now he's a police officer.

[01:10:38] He's my idea of extremely ethical extremely strong extremely responsible kind of person we want as a police officer and he was absolutely appalled at all this he was at all my trial he couldn't believe it and you know that besmirches those people who work really hard to keep their trust.

[01:10:57] Keep us safe. Well the problem is it calls into it when something like this happens and I'm sure Trek is going to echo this but like it calls into question the entire profession of law enforcement it calls into it calls into question the entire profession of the judiciary

[01:11:14] like I have so I'm in a unique situation and probably not unique but it's it's it's I'm I find myself walking a tightrope because I have friends and family who are in law enforcement who I know from knowing them personally and individually for anywhere from like 10 to 25 years.

[01:11:33] These are good people that are trying to do the right thing they're trying to uphold the law they're trying.

[01:11:39] But I simultaneously tell people all the time like if you in a perfect if you in the law enforcement profession do not take it upon yourself to be able to check a bad cop.

[01:11:53] You all look bad and it works like that across that's not even just law enforcement that is any organization above us or above like five people is that if you don't clean up your house you all look dirty and that's just the way it works and something like this.

[01:12:09] Give so much credence to the person who wants to put the black flag in the air and say the judiciary is crooked the police are crooked you know like it gives all that so much credence because here it is it happened.

[01:12:23] And then you wind up with those good cop saying but not all cops and I'm like.

[01:12:28] That's really that's really hard to say though when we watch that when we went from when on the back end from thirty thousand feet we look down at this situation and we say.

[01:12:37] How did all of this go so bad all at the same time yeah like this wasn't your story is not and I want to get back to like the trial but your story is not one of.

[01:12:50] The police screwed up but then the judge pitched the case out or like you know every step of what you described so far everything was done wrong. I don't think anything any part of this except for your part has been right.

[01:13:04] And and I'm just a layperson without correct knowledge of law enforcement but like the things you're describing I'm hearing and I'm like this doesn't even sound rational you know it doesn't sound rational like motion bait three.

[01:13:19] Yeah yeah three guys beating the tar of a person in his front yard he pulls out a handgun to defend himself how do we get how do we get to the point where at this in this story from where we started it just it makes no sense but.

[01:13:33] Well you know when you talk about the judiciary judge Luznick kind of came around but she came around because we kept doing appeals and they don't like that so we're in trial.

[01:13:44] They put officer Gessner chief Gessner on the stand he was on there for six hours he would be asked a direct question because he had even taught.

[01:13:56] At the community college class on crime scene investigation so you know he had all kind of bona fiat he's when he got up there but then when he got up there he didn't do any of them and they asked him questions directly out of his.

[01:14:10] Syllabus for his class did you do this did you do that and each time he would look over to the jury and he would do the word salad and just dissembled for a couple for a minute they look back at my life would say that's all very well.

[01:14:24] But that's a simple yes or no and you say no sir I did not do that that literally went on for six hours and I'm sure wouldn't be an exaggeration to say no sir I did not do that more than 100 times.

[01:14:37] The next day when we were he was still going to be questioned my. Council decided you know the jury might start having sympathy for this guy because it was so pathetic they just said no more questions and they quit you know it was just established so.

[01:14:53] At one point he during that time he said yes I made the wrong decision I think I panicked he just went on and on admitted everything that he panicked and he made the wrong decision well at that point literally the judge can can hit the gavel and say.

[01:15:11] You know this this is dismissed.

[01:15:15] And I kind of I was getting kind of happy I'm looking at the judge I'm thinking hey he just said he made up the whole thing you know but no they didn't do it and so we continue with the trial and then with a brilliant.

[01:15:30] Dr Drake of itch I don't know if you know he is he's probably an internationally known.

[01:15:36] Friends or forensic pathologist and we didn't pay him we we had to pay his time to the county that he comes from from Oakland County and he came and he just explained it he was this little rod that he had and he had a guy lay on the floor and.

[01:15:52] The prosecutor just she's like a little girl I want to stamp her feet but first you didn't him to be he's like elite in the whole world thank God I don't know I was so blessed to have and.

[01:16:05] She said well he's just not an expert in the judge looked at what do you have like an argument about this show no I just don't believe he should be you know what he and he's just renowned you know so anyways they show this you know that filet on the ground and they showed the judge.

[01:16:19] And she goes well I just don't think that's how it happened but that's not evidence and so she said you're just making it up and he said well if you have another way show me because I would be glad to know you know.

[01:16:31] And of course they didn't have another way there's not another way the bullet could go on that path and the stippling you know on the on the young man and all that kind of thing is very clear.

[01:16:41] And then my other witness was Jeff Matt who investigated more than 200 murders 240 220 whatever it was there's a lot and he's retired he's an expert witness they tried to say he wasn't but of course he is an expert witness he's a detective for many years.

[01:17:01] And he got up there and explained where he went wrong at the even the things he did he never did do an investigation but did wrong so it's all very clear.

[01:17:12] So when we went out I got to tell you though if I'm a pretty good see I mean I ride my exercise but I thought I was back to from years ago I have a little post traumatic stress and anxiety.

[01:17:23] To like some anxiety we had to go across to the restaurant and wait for the jury decide my life and death because I mean like I'm 68 I go to jail for manslaughter even that's it you know I'm not going to give me treatment for cancer there that kind of thing.

[01:17:35] And so but it took three hours you know from the time I walked out walk back and it was unanimous that you know 12-0 that I was innocent.

[01:17:44] So thank God for your system you know so you don't but talk about a railroading they really they really they really didn't do anything wrong.

[01:17:54] Well and Kirk I would ask I know and this is I think this is very important when a trial when the trial may be wrong the fact that you even bought the trial but the when a trials initiated and it's the same as what we would call in the state of Michigan and other states rape shield.

[01:18:10] Where you have a situation where past behavior cannot be brought into play because because of a specific situation I know that they of course were very protective of your assailants but.

[01:18:22] There there was clearly a very large delineation between you a pillar of the community someone that does help people with the lawn and and and is well known with the just the just the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the.

[01:19:08] Yeah yeah they what they would do is walk through our community their father that's the whole thing but their father is a five time felon he was a B and E guy.

[01:19:20] He may have been I'm not going to swear to this but he may have been locked where I worked but I don't remember but I'm not going to I don't know that for sure but he's a five time felon so I probably ran into him.

[01:19:32] So many houses in our little town with they don't report it but like my next door neighbors two other people just across from me all houses were broken into late at night all it's mostly older people retired.

[01:19:45] And they walk around it's I know a lot of crime they would scope houses and they would go back and then they'd come back at night and steal stuff.

[01:19:54] So I think they were going to steal my truck but that day they had started out they wrecked a building in the park and had a little their little gang signs painted on it.

[01:20:03] They vandalized it and it's a what's it what kind of it's like a preserved park area with all these bridges national historic sites they weren't and that day they went around and vandalized painting signs on it and that kind of thing.

[01:20:21] Then they cross the street they went to a store they got a bottle of wine from a person who works there as a friend of their family.

[01:20:27] They had marijuana that they got from their mother then they went down to the lake that's just half mile quarter mile down from us and they stole a boat and they went out and were getting high and drunk and what they had left in that bottle they put in their bag.

[01:20:41] And then they came up and that's when they assaulted me so their stuff was accelerating they were high they were drunk. In the course of the two years this came up three different school superintendents they were kicked out of five different schools.

[01:20:57] Three different superintendents called and said hey these guys are bad news.

[01:21:02] They're kicked out because they would surround somebody and the one would come up behind them and assault them so they were they already knew how to triangulate people and assault the bus driver real nice retired guy I don't know what his job used to be but he took that as a part time job.

[01:21:17] He stops he goes hey how are things going those guys are bad news you know and then previous to this just a few days a week before that they had stolen a car.

[01:21:28] And the county and the local cops they didn't they didn't want to do anything about it talk to their parents that kind of thing but they didn't do anything about that so you had this accelerating.

[01:21:39] Wave of crime that they were committing and I just happened to be you know lucky me I happen to be the guy bringing in my groceries the day they assaulted me which three of those four crimes happened that day.

[01:21:49] So you know so I'm thank God though was me because if they would have got my truck and my gun and my air you know God knows what they would have done you know so.

[01:22:00] And this is the moment in the story where little anarcho libertarian Phil almost starts to flirt with the idea of just putting up a proverbial match to the entire judicial and law enforcement system.

[01:22:13] Yeah because we're talking about they they overlook numerous felonies of the three people that wound up assaulting you but when it's you that shoots one of them all of a sudden they're really going to shoot you.

[01:22:26] Well it is and it's so you bring up a good point there you know the two that fled or the three that fled two of them that actually fled farther than 80 yards.

[01:22:36] If you're a victim Kirk's wife Jill would not have been the one calling 911 it would have been the two victims that our buddy was just burned down by some crazed lunatic with a gun and of course that was that was not the case right.

[01:22:47] And there is there is a time if an investigation is done and then they have to bring these you know this this stuff to trial they have to have these these things saying that this background is not relevant because they need to you know just because somebody did something on Monday and Tuesday they were then became a victim of a crime it's very important that they get their proper shake.

[01:23:06] The problem is the lack of investigation what they didn't do in Kirk's case they could have said hey don't leave the county.

[01:23:12] Yeah I'm glad that you're okay back from the hospital don't leave the county they could have started their investigation and they would have quickly found out through just simple investigation. Okay you got to wait for the forensics guy Bob to do his investigation.

[01:23:26] Yeah he's the guy that we all we all respect and we know so you should probably listen to him the basic investigation one on one would said let's just hold off on pressing charges and then they would have a

[01:23:47] which now they clearly do and not just that they look corrupt they are probably are and they and they certainly looked inept. Well let me let me say this I shot and killed somebody okay I expect I honestly do I expect.

[01:24:04] Excuse me the police to come put me in cuffs and take me and question me. Sure.

[01:24:09] A person a man a young teenager was killed that's serious they should cuff me they should take me in they should I think legally they can keep you 48 up they should find out what happened but they should separate them.

[01:24:23] They should cuff them they should put them in squad cars get all the stories and make a reason decision not a political decision and so like when that happens you know I want them to investigate that that's the problem.

[01:24:35] They didn't investigate it at all you know and then you've got the problem a cyber crime.

[01:24:40] Society I mean just because somebody's a juvenile we know that that's they have less thought process and there's a lot of violence by juveniles these days and they are overly protected they did all these crimes but nobody could bring that up in the trial.

[01:24:56] Nobody could bring that up in the trial. Nobody did anything about it. And so you're you're courting disaster when you do that.

[01:25:03] I don't know how much I buy into a legal principle that a person's past crimes have no influence or bearing on a current trial comma however I am not prepared to accept the fact that I'm a juvenile.

[01:25:15] I don't know how much I buy into a legal principle that a person's past crimes have no influence or bearing on a current trial comma however I am not prepared to accept the crimes they committed on the same stinking day before they got to you are not relevant.

[01:25:34] Neither is the fact that you know on top of the fact that they were loaded. It's just I'm just gonna set a rub on temples. I don't even know what to say like that there's nothing about this that there's nothing about this.

[01:25:46] Well the good thing is Phil so so the good and I wasn't there for the trial and the good thing is timelines still have to be established and I'm sure that the attorneys did a great job of establishing how these two parties intersected and when one is getting loaded on a stolen boat and vandalizing property.

[01:26:06] It may not be talking about their past criminal history but it's certainly part of the timeline of what they were doing and so I'm sure that was brought to light.

[01:26:14] But I think it's very important when you have it's the classic the prostitute that is raped and that is where those laws come from is that there's a very there's a big difference and so those the past Chris criminal history at a certain point has to be filtered from a jury but the true reality is where I was going is in his court so graciously stated even as someone that was a victim of a crime.

[01:26:36] And so I think that's the bottom line is that even though he was a victim of this wrongdoing he expected at least 48 hours to be part of an initial investigation where they say we don't know what your place is in this story.

[01:26:51] Until we get the full picture but that's a completely different story and so it really is. It's a it's a failure of that government grossly I mean in an aptitude that will cause Phil to rip out his beard even after this podcast is over.

[01:27:09] I don't even know if I'm willing to use the word inept like there is as someone who works in the public sector I operate with a very simple premise that there is a certain level of malfeasance that I don't care if an aptitude is the original cause for it you're guilty of it.

[01:27:25] Like you know like because I so I am one of those people that Kirk that I am spring loaded to this very naive childish idea that like the world is supposed to be fair even though it's not and I know that but like if there's a standard that we the citizenry are held to then damn it.

[01:27:45] I am going to blow a fuse and scream every time the people in power not held to the same standard.

[01:27:52] I understand they're not always I understand the world isn't fair just give it to me like it angers me it outrages me even though I know what happens all the time.

[01:28:02] So how many times have we the citizens been told over and over and over ignorance of the law is no defense ignorance is no defense so I'm going to flip it around and and say it to every law enforcement officer that touch this the judge the prosecutor every one of them in

[01:28:21] an aptitude is not an excuse when you when you when you screw this much of your job up far as I'm certain everyone belongs in prison with probably the same people they put in there because at this point I'm going to start at this point anyone could be forgiven for wondering who else is in jail that they railroaded.

[01:28:42] Who just to just didn't have as good of a lawyer as you did who didn't have family that mortgage their house to run to their rescue like how many people were put in the same position you were put in and the dice just didn't roll their way and they're still in prison.

[01:28:59] Well I can tell you one right now there's a young man that I got to know while I was there there's a little crack.

[01:29:07] I never got to know anybody so deeply through a little crack in the wall and his name is John Russell and right now he is in prison.

[01:29:17] He's a very very nice I've seen a lot of things in life I try not to be that person but I have a lot of the very naive guy very day worked a little factory for 20 bucks an hour two children he had just bought his first house he had 22 live in the country so he had 22 he'd go out by the wood pile practice shoot his 22s.

[01:29:37] He was assaulted in his house four times in one night by the same person breaking in finally the person pulled off their cell phone and start and he thought they pulled out a gun and he shot and you know that techie psyche syndrome he shot the bullet directly through the cell phone.

[01:29:53] It was a woman so that had a lot to do with it she died but they kept him they did the same thing to him in the cell they you know did the music trapped him there he felt he's a very very deeply devout Christian person like like the real thing you know he makes me look like a piece of garbage and you know he.

[01:30:13] And you know he he'd break down crying because he said oh he the woman wasn't saved and he killed her and you know he sent her to hell that's I mean he believed that and I said to him I said I mean I acted like a real kind of jerk to him I yelled at him I said.

[01:30:28] You don't I don't want to swear a lot but I was in the jail right so I go you fucking pussy quit act crying while you're in prison you'll get some bad news will happen to you got to act tougher than that who do you think you are you're not God you know I mean I was hard on it you know I mean.

[01:30:42] But anyways they kept him in there until and he said well you know the prosecutors nice to me and you know he says that maybe we can make a deal and.

[01:30:50] And I'm going like that's not what they're doing and so he ended up getting five years which he's doing right now or it might be nine but he'll do five to seven five to seven I'm sorry five to seven and.

[01:31:02] And you know it's funny I'm a hardened prison prison guard I mean I've been in hundreds of fights and slashed and stabbed and beaten and everything else and I'm going to go visit the guy you know as far as I could he was like a good he is a good person.

[01:31:19] A family man and all he did was defend his home with this person broke in a bunch of times.

[01:31:27] And but he couldn't afford an attorney and so the attorneys who are local here just like they want you to just book you get some statements from people you know who say you're a good guy well that just means they're going to they want to get you a better sentence.

[01:31:41] And you know I wasn't willing to do that and he did that and they kept him locked up longer than me and he finally you know signed the paper and he's in prison right now so those people I know one of them I know.

[01:31:55] I know one of them I know.

[01:31:57] That's saying though is there there it's blatant torture what they're doing yeah they're doing psychological basically psychological torture on inmates or you know I mean on jail prisoners or whatever until they get what they want until they get the sign they want they.

[01:32:17] Noriega you know what I mean like how they did Noriega down in Central America how they got to come out of it's all they blasted babies crying and music roll up that's what they do you know and they.

[01:32:30] That's it's just they're very kind of a out of control county it really is it's hard to believe yeah I mean I'm here because it's very conservative and of course.

[01:32:43] They hook it up you know like we're saying with Hillsdale College Hillsdale College has got nothing to do with it you know they're under themselves no way would I want that to reflect on them they're great but this these the sheriffs are they need to go that sheriff needs to go that judge needs to go and the prosecutor needs to go.

[01:33:05] So Kirk what's it's April was the was the verdict and it's now June what's. What's new for what is what is in your near future now that this is by the least this part is behind you.

[01:33:24] Well you know it's funny my wife has a little part time job she she I bought her a car so she could retire with a little bit of money I had we're very happy she could retire with me and of course now she got a little part time job because we need to do that.

[01:33:40] I released a vehicle so we can because we couldn't afford to buy one and so we've been driving that so you got something to drive which you know it's tough for a couple years and.

[01:33:52] I still coach I don't make any money doing it I got some local kids that I work with coaching and some people like.

[01:34:00] I did that in hockey for USA hockey for our national team development program that send players to the Olympics so I mentor guys and talk to guys and a lot about that sport and the situation young men face sometimes they might have a.

[01:34:17] I don't see anybody's video young guys there 2223 years old they might have a slight drug problem start they might have a divorce and I try to help guys like that out a lot with some of my experience it's unique to the professional league what you have to know.

[01:34:34] And so I'm doing that you know I'm still doing some good work and I'm and I'm I gotta tell you I love doing that stuff I love doing that stuff and of course I've been joining all my friends and trying to to get more politically active.

[01:34:53] To try to change like I said every politics is local to change what's happening around here and I'm gonna keep doing that.

[01:35:03] Well good well I mean if you ever if you want to come on and discuss anything coming up I mean if you need help getting your voice out I know you're Michigan and our show is all over the all over the US it's not just Michigan so but I mean by all means you can come on and talk and everything but.

[01:35:21] Thanks for coming on Kirk I don't know I honestly I don't know what else to ask or say or whatever I just if anybody can those of you who are listening will have the obviously we said at the top of the show and stuff but we'll have the link in the description when this goes out we'll blast it out a little bit on social and stuff but give send go.com slash operation Skywalker is the link.

[01:35:47] But I just this is worse than what I read. Like that it's just insane it's crazy and how bad it is. Hard to believe yeah no it is.

[01:36:01] I don't even know what to say at this point I've only been speechless on the show a couple of times me it kind of comes with the with the territory being a podcasters like you have to be able to find your words but.

[01:36:11] Kirk I don't even know what to feel that this that this is probably one of the most egregious miscarriages of justice I've ever heard and I've heard of a lot. Well I think you should feel as proud of what you're doing.

[01:36:29] You're going to word out on good things where people are following the Constitution you're pushing that forward for people to defend themselves and take care of themselves and you're representing what America should really be.

[01:36:41] So when you're all done with this don't be confused you know exactly who you are and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that and treks help and there's a lot of good people so don't.

[01:36:53] Don't despair there's a lot of us out there who want it to be right and I appreciate you guys for that yeah. Yeah I hope that by bringing you on this show like some good comes of it.

[01:37:05] For the listeners like I hope if you have $1 or five or whatever you can afford to give you know consider her giving.

[01:37:12] I would just say that for everybody like I've said I've again I'm going to reiterate it for the last time on this show I've said before that.

[01:37:23] My personal signposts for whether or not I use a gun to fix a problem is am I prepared to have my life torn literally apart as a consequence of using that gun and here's.

[01:37:36] Off unfortunately a horrible example of what I've always warned people of is that this could be waiting for you on the other side of that defensive shooting even if you're 100% in the right.

[01:37:47] So I always go to the idea that like if you can deescalate if you can walk away if you can get out of it that is always going to be my preference because ammo is expensive and my time is even more expensive.

[01:38:00] But for God sakes if you find yourself in that situation where you're on your back three on one I hope you've spent enough time training.

[01:38:09] Your mind and your body to be able to come out on top so that you have the opportunity to have your life torn apart afterwards I'm just glad you're still here. Thank you thank you.

[01:38:20] You could have you could have checked out right there on your you know in your grass in your front lawn well not today.

[01:38:29] I'm just I'm sitting here with a smirk on my face you guys can't see it and I'm just smirking because Kirk and through this entire process has had an ironclad will that people should be very jealous of and then his humility which is just an EPS incredible.

[01:38:45] I would say you know start taking some important lessons in the firearm training community.

[01:38:49] We have the tool or drill which is the 20 foot 21 feet and under we have the Farnham rule don't go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things and then we have the the the Kirk Hewlett rule which is you can do everything right.

[01:39:04] Things can go terribly wrong but if there's a community that's behind you things are going to be just fine and so.

[01:39:10] What I take from all of this is that Kirk is sitting right there in that seat he is sitting right there with his beautiful wife next to him and so horrible things happened.

[01:39:20] He's okay and so now what people get involved with is going to be what is the change that comes from this awful act and it can either be you can be the next victim or we can actually make a difference we can actually make a difference so we're all going to.

[01:39:37] It's kind of like take Phil's rant spot from him tonight but if and I just made a post on our Twitter account which is just a bad idea for me to get access to a Twitter account but it was look at everything that's going on my wife set me off this morning about schools are putting litter boxes in kids bathrooms because adults aren't slapping the shit out of kids that are thinking that they're cats when they're 12 years old.

[01:40:00] You've got a commander in chief that's walking around like a zombie and the last of us Chinese military is buying up land near our military bases but everyone in America is like this is fine.

[01:40:10] This is fine no it's not fine start at a certain point in time we have to say just like Benjamin Martin I use the movie references send another letter.

[01:40:20] Well we've already sent five letters well send another one because the alternative is not good and so people sitting back going well I'm gonna let somebody else do the heavy lifting.

[01:40:30] It's your time now you've got to get involved. You've got to vote you've got to be educated on your vote you've got to vote with your wallet and you've got to when you see somebody that is part of your quote unquote family.

[01:40:42] You need to stop bickering about the little things nine versus 40 versus 45 and just say that's a good American. That's not a good American and we're going to support good American so Kirk I know this was absolutely huge for you to come on here and to tell the story and then I truly believe you when you say that you are going to make it a point to make sure this doesn't happen another person I'm looking forward to backing you in every every way shape and form that you do it and guys thank you so much.

[01:41:09] I'm going to shut up but thank you for having Kirk on and me on. This is just I'm just warming up getting Kirk's story out there and I look forward to sharing this with everybody that can possibly share some some words with so thank you. Yes, thank you.

[01:41:24] I mean thank you Trek for making the introduction and everything and I mean as soon as you I mean as soon as this as soon as this happened and I remember Trek kind of telling me he didn't put out you know obviously he didn't put out any really any details when it first happened because he couldn't and he didn't want to throw possibly hurt something but anyway I mean he told me about this and I was like I need to get we need to talk to this guy you know possible if possible and then when he said you're not guilty and everything and that's another the first question I had was hey can we talk to him.

[01:41:54] And so Kirk I'm thankful and I'm thankful to you and everything and you know and your wife and I'm thankful for track to track to for for you coming on it for your story. I mean it's one thing to read about it in the news to follow follow it in the news like what we did with the written house trial and stuff like that and seeing it but with how obviously we know how media is and seeing the media reports of it and seeing how they portrayed the kid that did this.

[01:42:23] And you know but then hearing your whole your whole side of the story and hearing how actually bad everything from from the time the trigger from the time the gunshot to leading up to it all the way up past it go into the trial and stuff like that.

[01:42:40] Like how bad that the local police prosecutor judge everything how bad they treated you and how bad they just did everything. It's like I can't I'm I'm flabbergasted I cannot it's crazy to think that that could happen in the United States. You don't think it could or it should and it shouldn't really happen anywhere but it does let alone here. But no thank you for coming on.

[01:43:06] Thank you for having me. Appreciate that very much. Appreciate being here. Well I think we're going to go ahead and wrap this one up. One more time. Give send go Operation Skywalker if you feel like tossing Kirk you know the cost of Starbucks latte got all my stuff drink of those damn things.

[01:43:25] It would be greatly appreciated. And all I'm going to say guys is like this is the thing we have warned people of in the past which is even if you do everything 100 percent right. This could be waiting for you on the other side. So if up till this moment you have always assumed I do everything right. I'm good. I'm solid.

[01:43:45] Don't make that assumption anymore because we have we have we have entered a point in our nation's history where there are people masquerading as law enforcement officers and judges who deemed you guilty before they ever knew your name.

[01:44:02] And they're going to do their absolute best to make the facts fit the conviction they want. Not all but obviously enough that it's frustrating. So Kirk thanks for being on. Please keep in touch. I don't know what I don't I don't know what else we could do to lend you a hand but I am I am quietly hoping I'm quietly hoping you run for local office just because it makes those people very uncomfortable.

[01:44:27] Matter of fact podcasts heading out the door. Please please please be careful out there guys. The world is getting crazier by the moment and Kirk just raise my bar for what crazy really sounds like. But good night everybody. Take care of each other. We'll talk to you another week. Bye.