Church and State - Who's Really in Charge with Pastor Joe Tillis

Spokane Valley could become a sanctuary city of a different kind. Councilman Caleb Collier says that this proposal... I'm proposing that the city of Spokane Valley issue a proclamation stating that our city is a Second Amendment sanctuary. Welcome to the fire. Today on Church and State, one of my favorite reoccurring guests, Pastor Joe Tillis of The Soul Trap. Hello, Christian patriots, and welcome to Church and State, where we drive morality and religion over tolerance and apathy. And I'm your host, Caleb Collier, once again, your favorite far-right shock jock, and the show that talks about politics and religion. Jesus Christ is our referee, so it's always nice and clean. Real quick, let's point you to the website, churchandstate.media, and you know what to do. Fill out this form. Number one, get our newsletter. Number two, bypass a lot of the censorship. And number three, you get a personal phone call from yours truly. So you want to talk to me? There you go. There's your chance. 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He runs a fantastic show called The Soul Trap. You can see that at thesoultrap.com. He's a pastor down in Florida, a Baptist friend of mine, Pastor Joel Tillis. Thank you again for joining us on Church Estate. Hey, it's an honor to be here always. It's exciting to be here. And we just appreciate you. Having us back. Yeah, like I said, I'm thrilled to have you. There are certain people that I've met over the years where even though we've never met in person, there's just a real kindred spirit that I picked up on you. And we just we became friends almost immediately. Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's one of those things are just to connect. And I feel like sometimes when we talk, it can go by so very fast. And you've been a real help to us and been on the show and the insight and the balance. And it's just been it's just been very refreshing. It's always an honor to be on your show. Awesome. Well, I have a video that I want to show you because I just I want to get you angry right off the bat, apparently, is my motivation here. You and me both. I actually did this the other day. I was I was recording and I covered this on my own. But as a pastor, you know what I mean? With the show like Church and State, let's get a pastor's view on this from what I'm hesitant. I'm really hesitant to call this other man a pastor. But I want to just get your take on this video. This is a sermon from an individual out of Atlanta, Georgia. Go ahead, Chris. Let's go ahead and listen to what he has to say. Nobody tells you how he paid the price. Nobody tells you that he went to hell. The Bible says when he was beaten physically, you could not tell that he used to be a man. Then he went to hell and this man was on fire for three days. This man was being eaten with maggots from within for three days. This man was molested by demons for three days. And that's a light word for what they did to Satan, what they did to Jesus. Because he had to pay the price and be tormented for every sin that would ever exist. So every single type of torment that they were going to give you, Jesus had to suffer all of those torments for every single person over those three days. You can have that. And so that's the reason why. Because Jesus that's one of the reasons why Jesus paid such a stiff tormenting price so you know when a man and a woman come together. You know the plug goes in the socket y'all know what I'm saying I mean I don't want to be ghetto and just call it a hole but you know. This is not where I don't have the ability to do this eloquently But I don't know if she said it or she said it under her breath. But she said, yeah, they were down there. And she says, when the demons do that to you, they create other holes. I know it's going to get me in trouble. Because these preachers, they don't really, they think they know everything. You don't know anything. People think I know something. What do I know that God hasn't taught me? But I want you to think about that. Jesus is down there being molested. And that's a light, clean word based on what they are doing to him down there. You don't want to understand what it is that they are doing to him down there because he had to pay the price for people that commit sexual sin. He had to pay the price for the lesbian. He had to pay the price for the homosexual. He had to pay the price for those that are in bestiality. So this is why God is like, yeah, if you don't accept him, you're going there. because you didn't see what I saw. All right, that's the bulk of it. Chris, go ahead and pause that. And Pastor Joel, I know that's hard to watch, make a mockery of our faith like that. But go ahead, the microphone's yours. Well, I think that obviously, you know, theologically, he's just incorrect. And from a strict, low-hanging theological point of view, That's the problem that you run into when you're preaching what sounds good rather than preaching what the text says. Now, we can get into a debate as to what that means when it says, I will not leave my soul in hell. And there's a lot of things in that. But what he's doing is going beyond what the text says, and he's adding things in there that are simply not in the Bible. And that's the first, the lowest hanging problem is you're not preaching what the Bible says. The second thing that's interesting to me is that he chooses that sin. He chooses those sins. He doesn't choose. Drug abuse or gambling or spousal abuse or any other thing. It's interesting that it's sexual to him, and he feels the need to keep going, keep going, and he can't. Let it alone. If you notice from a psychological point, he can't just lay it out there and let people fill in the blanks. He has to keep going and keep going and keep going and keep going until he gets what I would consider graphic. That tells me that there is a spirit there of blasphemy. There's a spirit there of sexual perversion. I would be interested to see where he is in 10 years. I would be shocked if he's still in ministry. So it's very blasphemous that he goes on that way. The real tragedy is, and this is maybe looking at it from the different end of the looking glass, is that there are people sitting out there in the pew going, yeah, I'll come back and hear that man again. And that's probably more problematic than anything. I mean, why he would have somebody to preach to, I don't understand. Either the people that are there are lost and unregenerate, or the people that are there that are Christian, but they have no. Zero discernment whatsoever. But it just goes to. Show that I think, the other thing I'll say is this, one other aspect of it, and I've been hitting on this for quite a while, is there is a danger of of celebrity. There is a danger of being a pastor in social media. There is a danger of that. And I speak as one who has a Soul Trap podcast. Our preaching is on YouTube, but my preaching is never live stream. We delay the release of our messages, I think, for about a month is when. The release is. There is just a danger because when you are a celebrity, you feel the consistent need to one-up The next message has to be better than the last message has to be better than the last because you're peddling a product. And I think some of these guys find themselves in that situation. And man, that I mean, that. Just ticked every single box of blasphemy that you could actually hit. And the guy's got followers, the guy's got people sitting there listening to him. And I mean, that's the that's the reason that we're in the mess we're in right now. And it's tragic. It truly is. that people are listening to that. And that's even a rational thought to come up with. Yeah, I agree. You know, you hit on some things. Like I said, I covered this yesterday, actually, on the show. But you brought up some points that I didn't even consider. Did you notice the music as well? It's literally designed to kind of put you in a restful state to where you're more susceptible to what the speaker is saying. Yes. And in fact, I think that when you look at it, the modern churches are designed to be performance, even the music. If you look at the stages, in the old days, the platforms, we called them platforms because you were simply elevating so that people could see. That's not the case anymore. The lighting, it's dim in the audience. The stage is lit up. You don't really have choirs anymore. You have praise teams and praise bands and select people that play select instruments. And the music feels different and the mood feels different. There's not a pulpit anymore. There's a little bit of a lectern there for the guy to be able to move around and use that as a reference point. it just, it resembles more of entertainment and less of the preaching of the Word of God. And my opinion is, even though, you know, we can take this to a bad extreme, I think we need the antiquity. I think pews are a good thing. Steeples are a good thing. Church bells are a good thing. Hymns are a good thing. Keep the screens out of the church if you can at all help it. I think going back to the ancient simplicity is a good thing. I think some liturgical sense is a good thing. You know, there's a sense in which we're too extemporaneous. You just get up and pray whatever comes to your mind. There's just something is missing. And when you look at that, it is very hypnotic. And again, I go to it. He can't leave it alone. Even if you wanted to, for the sake of argument, and he's absolutely theologically wrong, but for the sake of argument, let's suppose that in some way he's somewhere in the ballpark of right. Well, once you made your case, just let it alone. Everybody kind of got the idea of what you're talking about, but he didn't want it to be that way. He wanted to keep pushing it right up into the point where everyone was uncomfortable. And that's blasphemy. That's what he was wanting to do. Um, and you know, it, it, it, it absolutely makes a mockery of, of what Christ did. And, and the truth of the matter is if you're a sinner there and you're lost, it, it, it does no, it doesn't, if it brings no conviction to the soul of a sinner, whatsoever, what he just did, all that does is make it feel weird, make it feel uncomfortable. And that's not what the Holy Spirit of God does. When he comes, he can reprove the world of sin, the Bible said. And so I think that that is just very, very problematic. Yeah, I agree. I didn't think I could like you any more than I already do. But after what you just said, here I am. You know, the attacks on the church, Pastor Joel, you know, it's easy to point to the secularists and the atheists and the leftists, right, that Yeah, they're attacking the church or the progressive side of the church. I don't even like saying that, but there is a progressive wing. But I think one of the attacks that's occurring, a lot of Christians on the right are missing, and it's coming from churches like this. As you said, the celebrity pastors, the seeker sensitive, honestly, that movement. And look, I do love my Pentecostal and charismatic brothers and sisters, okay? Yeah. Your church isn't for me, okay? It's not, but I love you. I love your heart. I love that you get into this. But a lot of them have dwelled so much into the emotionalism and what God makes them feel. I remember a church that I had been involved with, and the pastor's wife had actually made a post that said, you don't have to read the book if you know the author. And I was just like, oh my gosh, like that makes you so susceptible to what we just watched. Yeah. Well, I mean, I believe it's in Psalm 138 where God said, I have set my word above my own name. The word and words. Of God matter to God so much so that he equates it being higher than his own name. So when somebody puts down the word of God as a secondary function, I mean, the Bible itself is referred to as a living book. So it tells me that they don't understand that. And I'll take it one step further. There's a young man in our community who I wholeheartedly support. And after, excuse me, after the Charlie Kirk assassination, he got passionate. He's here involved with a local chapter of TPUSA. a really good young man. I told some of our young men the other day, I said, the tragedy to me, and I. Don't know, maybe tragedy is a rough word, but. The sad part for me is that his knee-jerk reaction to our country being in trouble is that the only way he can make a difference is politically. It never crossed that young man's mind to be a preacher, a pastor, a missionary here in America, because churches can't make a difference anymore. And I believe that that the problem that we have is that our churches and across the board, Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, there is an abject failure to meet the community there. In other words, my concern is Manatee County. If it splashes over, great. But I'm not. Called to be an influencer. That's not a gifting of the body of Christ. YouTube is not a gifting to the body of Christ. If somebody listens to my message on the other side of the country and goes, I like that guy, great. But I'm not designed by God to do anything but to reach my local parish. That's the way that it works. And that has been lost. Now guys are able to bypass where they are like this guy. He said, I know it's going to get me in trouble with who? Well, he's talking about online. And so that was his thinking. And so I think that that's a very big problem. We are too, I almost think that you could go and have a six month moratorium on all live and posts and just get back locally. And that's where you're going to see power. Unfortunately, pastors have. Been pushed in some ways and have intentionally bought into, hey, we need to have a social media footprint. And I just think it's, become counterproductive to the local church. You know, I love something that you just said there. And I don't know why I'm having a light bulb moment here, but I've talked about it and other people definitely with a bigger reach than me have talked about it. General Flynn, for example, of to save politics, we got to go local. But what you just said, to save America, to go back to our Christian roots, go local as well. Stop watching these celebrity pastors. Stop looking to, you know, Joel Osteen, or even, you know, Joel Osteen's an easy one, you know, Jack Hicks or something like that, right? Who's definitely more theologically sound than Joel Osteen. Like, stop going there, go into your local congregation and start actually influencing people in your neighborhood. Yes, well, and that's one of the reasons why we wrote the book, The Little Big Church. And it's easy because it... It's not necessarily that the people are all negative. I can't think of the guy's name, total Josh. He just signed with the Blaze. Oh, I know who you're talking about, and I can't think of his name either. Josh Howerton. Josh Howerton. Thanks, Kevin. Josh Howerton. Okay. Decent guy, good guy. I don't know all the ins and outs and this kind of thing like that. But the concern that I have is, is that as a pastor, he's now signed with the Blaze. His show is with the Blaze. Well. I don't think that that's going to help the situation. As a pastor, like we do the soul trap, but I don't think that the soul trap is the answer for America. I think the local New Testament churches and pastors need to be engaged in their local area, in their local church. Now you should preach as if the whole world depended on you, but it's a local church. It's the local church ministry. And to be honest with you, that's what's happening. Christians right now are doing two things across the board. Number one, they're defying the method that God has always chosen for 2,000 years, and that is the local church. Number two, they're defying the natural authority that God put in place. And that's the office of the pastor. You say, well, the pastors have gone wrong. David said that about Saul, but David still didn't mess with Saul. It was still, he left that in God's hands. Right now, Christians put more authority into Instagram reels and YouTube celebrities than they do the man standing in front of them on Sunday. And that's both social media's fault and that man's fault as well. And I believe if we're going to see any hope, we've got to recapture the local church, the local parish, and the authority of that local pastor, not from his personality, but But the authority that comes from preaching the word of God, that's where it comes from. But it has to be at a local level. You know, trying to be a YouTube influencer, I think has infected far too many of our pastors, far too many. I would completely agree with that. Now, switching gears, and we actually spent a lot of time on that. I should have figured we would, because there's a lot to dissect in that. But you did bring up Charlie Kirk, you know, and here we are, As of this recording, it's September 9th. So one more day and we're hitting the one year anniversary. It's shocking to me that we're already a year past the death of my former boss. But, you know, there is obviously politically they're using this, sad to say, but they're using this, that 9-11. But after a year of this and you brought up this individual that you know with TPUSA, you know, where are we? Where are we as a nation? Is what Charlie pushed... actually being used? Are people actually going out into the public square and doing the things that Charlie did? Or have we become even more balkanized? Yeah, well, sadly, I think there was a window. We saw it here at our church and we saw it in our realm with young people. Now I think young people are more turned off than they have ever been. And I'm talking about the right, on the right side. I told a group of people I was speaking to, young adults and teens the other day, I believe that Charlie Kirk was very dangerous to the establishment. And I'm not saying that it was this way, but the last person that had this much political clout and was this dangerous was John Kennedy. And he was assassinated. He was going to change. The face of American politics via the CIA, Vietnam, et cetera, et cetera. I believe that Charlie Kirk very well could have been the next vice president, or even possibly the president. And even if he wasn't, he had massive, massive amounts of power. I mean, he was pulling in thousands of young people, and that was a dangerous thing. When he was. Assassinated and killed, the immediate response was a rally. And almost immediately interjected into that was, quote, unquote, it's the Jews. And for a good solid six months, it has been— it was nothing but the Jews, the Jews, the Jews, when in fact the real deep state danger here in our country is the hard, hard right. And, I believe, the hard, hard neocommunism. That's the real issue. And now it's kind of faded just a little bit, but it's balkanized. We're divided. And I don't know how we're going to come back from that. And the one kind of super glue that was holding it together for a while, Donald Trump, that has shivered into a thousand pieces. And so I don't see any way forward because I don't see a figure like Charlie Kirk that's going to capture the next generation. And the people, the young people that I'm around at the college at USF and State College of Florida and et cetera, et cetera, they're turned off. And they're not turned off from the left. That was there. They're turned off from the right. And the ones that aren't turned off are tracking more towards the Nick Fuentes. Kind of a, there's a huge groundswell. You can call it black fatigue, but there's a huge groundswell of, of, racial politics that is growing in the white community with the young adults coming up. So it almost on that day, it was not just Charlie Kirk that I think was killed, but it was a movement that was killed. It just took a while for that momentum to run out, if that makes sense. I would completely agree with your assessment. And this division, I've talked about this a lot on my show, This intentional division, it's manufactured. And yes, there is more whites now that are looking at blacks as lesser than. And it's such a shame to see something like that occurring. They are our black brothers and sisters. We bring the gospel, the message of hope to them. Or if they're already a Christian, that is my brother, that is my sister. Certainly within the Jewish thing. And this is something that I've devoted a lot of time to because... I'm not a dispensationalist. You know that about me. So I don't view Israel as like, you know, God's chosen people, special. I certainly believe that God has a plan for the Jewish people. But I'm so tired of getting on X, for example, which has become like the wild, wild west. And people are defending Hitler. People are saying Hitler was right. And look, I have problems with my own government. I have problems with the Israeli government. I don't want to be involved in foreign wars forever. all over the place because it's harming America. But I certainly don't say that it's the Jews 100% of the time. Yeah. Well, yes, and I agree. And as a dispensationalist, I would be what you would consider a classical. I don't think that we're duty bound to support the Israeli government in lockstep. I don't think it's healthy. I don't think it's right. I think God has created nations And quite frankly, I believe that God's agency of primary spiritual reality in this dispensation, to use that word, is the church. And so I think that there's a lot of room, and there always has been, even though Puritans and Lutherans and all of us, there's been a variety of how we see things. That's that's over here. That's apples. The oranges is, yeah, Hitler may have may have had some validity. And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're comparing apples and oranges here. Do I think Bibi Netanyahu is a good guy? Probably not. Do I think that they had a stand down order on October 7th? Probably so. I tend to think so. Do I think that they're trying to recreate? Yeah. But all that to the side, I don't think that there's any particular good guys in the Middle East. I don't think China's a good guy. In other words, there's some nuance there. And I just think that we have opened up a can, a Pandora's box, that we cannot get the lid back on. And that's the problem that's dangerous to me right now. I see that in the church. I see that in politics. Our young people, they're just checking out. To me, Charlie Kirk... was bigger, he was a movement. He had the ability of uniting all of these people and almost kind of keeping them in line. He tended to keep Candace Owens' crazy in line. He tended to keep Nick Fuentes in line. Tucker Carlson couldn't get to her. All of these guys, they kind of were under that wing, and when he and his movement, boom, went out of the way and was taken out of the way by assassination, then You just had this balkanization. And it's exactly what what we're seeing right now. The tragedy is, is that I think you're going to see the next elections coming up, at least the major elections. You're going to see a huge drop in young people vote, a huge drop. And that was what was scaring the establishment, I think, in the long run. I agree. And you and I, I think I was a guest on your show when you asked me that question of what did I see for the election in 2026? And I told you a massive blue wave, unless Donald Trump interferes. And that actually was dropped yesterday in the New American. He's got an executive order that he signed against election fraud and for election integrity. So that could be in the works. And I actually... pose the question to my producer on this. I'll throw this at you. You might have to come back after the hard break and really respond to this. But when we find ourselves in a position where we just allow the elections to take place with all the fraud that we know is occurring from domestic and foreign interference, right? Or do we allow Donald Trump to say there is no election because it's not going to be stable? It's not going to be safe. You know, that's a rock and a hard place. And either way, you end up in tyranny. It's the, what is the Kobayashi Maru? The no-win situation. I mean, it really, really is. And I think that that's something that we should maybe talk about a little bit more because it does take us back full circle to me to 9-11 because I remember when. Let me pause you right there, Pastor Joel. I apologize, but we hit that hard break moment. We'll come right back here, ladies and gentlemen. If you This is Caleb Collier with Church and State. Are you tired of your device spying on you? Ladies and gentlemen, we live in 1984. Your phones, your tablets, your smart televisions, they all are spying on you. And this is why I heavily endorse mark37. com. This is everything you need for your digital privacy. Phones, tablets, laptops. All of them are ghost protocol. So that means that you are in charge of your own data. Just go to churchandstate.media, scroll over to shop and hit mark37. com for all of your privacy needs. Make sure to use that promo code churchandstate. And we are back. Thank you for staying with us. You're over at churchandstate.media. We're going to go right back to our guest. But real quick, let me plug one of our awesome affiliates. And I'm thinking coffee, Chris. You know, I love coffee. Chris loves coffee even more than I do. I'll tell you, in America, we don't drink garbage brown water. And by that, I mean tea. Tea is disgusting. I'm sorry if you drink tea and you like this show. I'm probably offending you. But honestly, why? Stop. Drink the real stuff. Coffee. All right. I love Hunter's Blend Coffee. These guys are awesome. They are Christians. They are patriots. They love this country. And they bring a mean cup of Joe. OK, Liberty Roast. That is fantastic. I'm a big fan of their their black powder. It's dark. It's so dark. It immediately puts hair on your chest. So check them out, Hunter's Blend Coffee. Use the promo code CHURCHANDSTATE when you order this. Guarantee you're not going to be disappointed, and you're actually going to be a little bit more awake as well. All right. Also, one more time, hit the donate button for us. Keep us alive. Conversations like this are so important, and we're exploring. We're trying to bring the truth. That's the agenda here is a truth agenda, and my guest is certainly one of those truth advocates. So please hit the donate button for us. All right. With that, Let's go back to Pastor Joel Tillis of The Soul Trap, thesoultrap.com. Pastor Joel, I had to rudely interrupt you. I apologize. But you were talking about 9-11. So please continue. Well, first of all, I would just agree with you. We haven't been fans of tea since 1776. So if you're an American, drink coffee. I'm behind you 100% on that. Well, I remember when George Bush was running and we had the hanging chads in Florida and and you know all of that and then basically if you go back it's quickly how quickly we forget but if you go back basically the supreme court just said nope he's the president that's it we're gonna count these it is it's done what it's done and i was behind that back then i'd be like yeah that's the way we need to do democrats bad republicans good sounds good to me well then just a couple months later we get 9-11 and the world changes and we have a president who is in office but it's not just the president we have dick cheney we have rumsfeld we have Colin Powell. We have Rice. We have the entirety of the neocon New World Order surprisingly in place by hanging chads in a Supreme Court that happened, you know, coincidentally right before the biggest shift in American policy in arguably 150 years. So it makes you wonder about the elections in 2000. Now, if we could go back. To 2000, it makes you wonder since then, about these elections that have gone forward. So when have we had accurate elections? When have we had good elections? How do we know? I mean, you can go even further back than that when you go to Kennedy and Joe Kennedy getting the election stolen in certain areas. So the question now has become really, really real because we've seen it. Happen, I think, in live time. I think a lot of— half the country saw it happen in live time in 2020. You know, and all of that. So now here comes along Donald Trump, and what do you do? Do we have China involved in elections? Looks like. Has there been other involved? Yes. Are we seeing a lot of stuff with the Dominion and all of that? Absolutely. Absolutely. But what is the alternative? Do you have corrupt elections or do you have no elections? And to me, that's the master play because they put you in a no-win situation. And in that no-win situation, all that does is cause chaos and confusion. And I ultimately think that that's what they're looking for, to bring the cancer from within And that's what they're looking for. So I just don't have an answer. I don't know what would be worse, no election or corrupt election. I tend to think that ultimately, even having the symbol of the election is still better. I think the day that we go, hey, we're not having elections anymore. that's the day when you might as well wrap. It up, the party's over. At least even if it's corrupt, there's still a sense that they have to pretend that it's not. When they don't have to pretend anymore, that may be a big problem. I 100% agree with you on that one. That's the conclusion that I came to. It is a no-win situation, but I would rather at least operate under the farce of free elections than have a mad tyrant- regardless of political affiliation, that is the king, de facto king of the United States. And once again, you just nailed it. It's the Cloward and Piven strategy. I talk about this a lot of crisis solution. And so they have created this crisis that we have. We don't have elections that are fair. We don't have elections that are accurate. So the solution is, of course, to install a puppet king, because that's what they would be, a puppet king of the globalists, and then they can institute their plans. And I think Donald Trump, honestly, in my opinion, as I've watched him, I'd actually asked you this off air, but he seems to be losing it. And he seems to be pushing an agenda. Take, for example, this posting of, Pretty much the entire Western Hemisphere under the American flag. Canada, Greenland, Iceland even, Mexico, all under the American flag. That's part of the Ten Regions Plan that was floated by the Club of Rome, the Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations. So he seems to be moving in the direction of the globalists all the while saying, I'm fighting against the deep state. Yeah, it's almost, you know, I've said this before, and I don't know if it was with you or something, but it's almost like he's a little kid in the backseat hearing mom and dad talk up in the front, and then he states stuff without understanding the full context. I think when he says stuff like that, I think it's because he's heard stuff like that. I don't think that's just coming from nowhere. I think he hears those. Things and then has the audacity to say certain things from his point of view. But it is definitely interesting to watch this unfold and to see how it does unfold, because I. Agree with you. I see no way— I don't see what happens after him. That's the big thing to me. And even years ago when he first ran and came in, the question has always been, where do you go from Trump? Where do you go? And I think that that's going to be the real question to see what happens. But— It really is like Carol Quigley said in his book, Tragedy and Hope. I think ultimately it's potato, potato, you know, it left or right. I don't think that it really matters. I mean, here's the dirty secret or here's the underlying truth that I think that gets missed. Back in 2020, when he came out, everything got shut down. We failed to remember that there was a vast majority. Of people that did not want that. It was not popular. But they did it anyway. They shut football down. They shut racing down. They shut bars down. It was not a popular thing. They shut churches down. Churches down. But they did it anyway. And I've always remembered that in my mind because at the end of the day, they proved something to themselves, if not to us. And that is, even if it's unpopular, it doesn't matter. They have the economic power. the military, and the political willpower to do what they want to do. So you say, man, there'd be no way that they could suspend. This country would go into an uproar if they suspended election. You mean it went into an uproar when they suspended people's businesses and livelihoods and churches? But they did it anyway. And that's the dirty secret that nobody wants to think about. They were willing to do the absolute unbelievable thing They did it anyway. And if they did it once, I do think the potential is there for them to do that again. I 100% agree once again. One of the things that had always vexed me as I was working in politics, working for different political organizations, doing rallies, protests, was that I would see some churches, some pastors who didn't want to get involved. And I always believed that they were feckless, that they were unwilling to get into that public square and influence things in a positive way. But as I've matured, perhaps growing a little bit older, some of these pastors, I find myself understanding now, because there was a real risk in bringing the church into politics with the idea that we could transform it. But in reality, we were wrestling with the pig We were getting dirty. We were getting covered in mud. Now, I don't want to say, hey, Christians, just exit the system entirely. Just focus completely on what's going inside of your congregation. I still do want Christians to influence politics, really the world as a whole. But where's that happy medium? Yeah. Well, we did that. I mean, that was a challenge that we faced. And I think the name. Church and state says it all. I mean, it's not either or, and it's not church slash state. It's two entities moving at the same time. And that is a challenge. And I don't know that it's an easy solution. I think every situation is different. And that's why, in my personal opinion, I believe, first of all, the word of God is number one. But a missing component in many of preachers training is church history. They don't understand that there is no new thing under the sun and that churches have had to deal with these kind of things before. They've had to face issues before. And so you need to go back to, you know, Isaac went back to the wells that Abraham, his father, dug. And that's where it is. We need to go back. What did they do in times of old? Now, my personal opinion is, is I do believe that a church does have a civic responsibility. So long as that civic responsibility is subordinate to its spiritual responsibility. And that's the challenge to keep that in place. For instance, the young man I was telling you about, we were talking about, he's involved in politics. I have supported him. I publicly support him. I think he's a great young man. They reached out to us. They wanted to hold a local chapter, the TPUSA, Can we hold that at your gymnasium and do that? And I told him we're not going to do that simply because, unfortunately, TPUSA is such a huge political hot button. I just don't want to host that on the church property. but I'll be glad to come support. You or pray for you. So there's those little nuances that we do there. They wanted to hold it in our sanctuary actions. Like, no, we just, we would not do that in the sanctuary there. It is the sanctuary. So I think you have to, you have to be balanced, but I don't think that you can check out at the same time. I don't think you can change it from the top down. It has to be changed from the heart out. I think that's incredibly well said. And now I want to dive in in the last portion of the show. I want to dive into the conspiracy theory realm because I know you're not afraid to do this. I watch your show. I'm a big fan of your show. And Donald Trump, and I alluded to this earlier, that some people are claiming he's kind of lost his mind. Some of the posts recently and even I think it was today, actually, he was talking about his experience at 9-11 and he made up an entire story. about firefighters grabbing him and pulling him away from a building because they thought it was going to come down. When in reality, we have him. He actually called in and did an interview and rather rather insensitive, honestly, in his comments, was saying that his building was now the biggest in New York, which is a very odd thing to say during the 9-11 attacks. We, you know, as conservatives, we were pointing out some inconsistencies with Biden. We were questioning where he was cognitively. We even had questions about, you know, earlobes. Is this the same guy? Are they using a body double? Is it fair to do these same kind of questions in regards to Donald Trump? Well, I think it is. You know, it's interesting, in 9-11, that video, the audio that you're talking about, he actually talked about how he found it odd that the building came down because of its steel superstructure. And that's an interesting thing there when you think about that. But that being said, I. Definitely think that something has happened to Donald Trump. Now, whether it is that it's a body double or— whether he's simply losing cognitive skill at his age. I would also submit to you that, you know, the Bible says that the heart of the king is. In the hand of the Lord. He turneth it whithersoever he will. And I suspect that God will use certain men, even though they're lost, necessarily not saved. Certainly he did that with Nebuchadnezzar. He did that with Sennacherib and others. but that God can turn the heart of men. He can change and harden. We saw what he did with Pharaoh in the Bible. We may be seeing that these last two years with Donald Trump. If nothing else, we could be seeing God taking his protective hand off of him. And allowing him to. Cognitively devolve even more. So I think that there's a spiritual element there for sure. But, you know, even the hair color has changed with Donald Trump. It really, really is. It's odd. And when you look at it, you go, man, if we could say that about Biden, why aren't we saying that about Trump? And I think you're right. I think you said it well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. And the guy has gone off the charts crazy. Yeah. And Pastor Joel, at this point, if he all of a sudden started growing a massive amount of body hair and his nails got really long and he started eating grass in a field, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I think that that's where we miss out is that there is a spiritual. It's interesting too, I was just reading in the book of Ephesians and it talks about the term principalities. There is spiritual wickedness over realms and regions. And Certainly, we knew in Daniel, he talked about the prince of Greece and the prince of Persia. And I full well believe that there is a prince of America, of North America. I think there's a prince of China. There are regional principalities and powers of darkness. And if God isn't protecting that leader, whether that leader is saved or not, if that leader has fulfilled his purpose and he's not saved and is full of pride. And then it's dangerous. It is very, very dangerous. And I think you could be seeing that with Donald Trump literally losing his mind because God has taken his hand off of him for whatever reason, and now he's simply losing those cognitive abilities. That would be the spiritual side. The regular side is the guy is just simply getting older. I mean, he's older, and he's always had a pride issue. And here's the thing. Old people just don't wake up one day the way that they are. They've been that way their whole life. They've just gotten too old to fight it anymore. To care anymore, yeah. That's the truth. That's the truth. And he has been a prideful, arrogant man his whole life. And I just wonder if he's just getting too old to just keep it together. And he just, hey, I'm just going to say whatever I want to say at the time that brings me the most grandeur and the most glory that can possibly be done. And another great concern here, and we brought up Hitler earlier in the episode, but one of the things that Hitler did was his entire cabinet was filled with yes men. He did not want somebody to push back. And honestly, to his own demise, if Hitler would have had people around him that had been like, you know, it may not be wise to attack the West and the Eastern Front at the same time. We might be speaking German right now. We don't know. But Donald Trump has filled his cabinet, his entire administration, with yes people. And if there's anybody in Congress that dares to push back on the Republican side of things, well, then you get what happened to Thomas Massey. I agree. And I think, and Green, Marjorie Green, others. So here's the thing. If somebody would have said to Hitler, hey, Operation Barbarossa, let's not do that. Let's not do that at all. I actually believe that there could have been a situation where there was a joining of forces or at least some sort of a treaty with Germany and then a push back against communist Russia. I think what I believe is happening right now is I believe that there was a vacuum created in the Middle East that with us being involved, and then the Arab Spring. And I believe that there is a neocon. Seven mountains, Christian nationalist, deep state, I think even a Jesuit involvement connected with. The Jewish nation right now. And I'm using the term, not the people, the nation, the political nation, and that the vacuum that has been created is now trying to be filled with, I believe, a neo-Jewish empire. That's what I think is trying to be done right now. And I do not. And I think that there's a war going on within the administration to some degree with our government, a war going on over there. But I don't think that that's going to end up good. I actually think prophecy and politically it's going to end up backfiring on Israel. But that's what I think is trying to see. That vacuum is trying to be filled with a hegemony or with the power of Israel as a new Israeli Davidic empire over there. And they've already got the Abraham Accords going on. They've got these pieces in place. And so it's very, very dangerous. And you're exactly right. I actually think Donald Trump is more of a pawn there. I think he means well in a lot of ways, but I think the real power brokers use him behind the scenes, and I think he's almost come to the end of his usefulness, and that's why we're seeing what we're seeing. You know, we've already gone a little bit over, but I cannot pause. Do you have a little bit more time? Sure. Yes, sir. Okay. I got to keep going because what you just said is too incredible– To just say, hey, thanks for watching the show. See you next episode. I mean, you just dropped a bomb on the audience that we've got to dive into a little bit here because, I mean, you brought into so many different groups that are all working towards one specific agenda. You brought up the seven mountains, which I'm big on. You know, this new apostolic reformation, it is a modern heresy, in my opinion, that that has absolutely infiltrated the evangelical church. And they are pushing an agenda that is not biblical. It's man-centric, and they think that they have all the power. Now, you couple that with the nation of Israel, like you said, the Jesuits as well. I mean, all that central focus there is on power, collecting that power for an agenda that, my goodness, I mean, They're already passing, I mean, Texas is passing no-hide laws. I'm sure you've seen this. It's happening all across the country. And one of the laws in that is decapitation for those that don't follow the Lord. Now, when you apply that to the law and to Jerusalem and what the Jews believe, Christians fall under that. This is a real risk to us. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I think that what you're going to see, I believe that deeper than the deep state is deep religion. And I believe that there are some deep connections between the Jesuit, the Seven Mountains, Christian nationalism. And I say that cautiously there. I also believe that on the other side of the coin, what you have is is the Jewish nation is not a Christian nation. It's not a godly nation. It is being gathered together from my understanding of the Bible. The Jewish nation is being gathered back together, and here's where dispensationalists and some people that don't understand what we're saying miss the point. We don't believe. That they're gathered back together so that they're And everybody's singing Kumbaya and we're happy. No, no, no, no. They are being gathered together for judgment. That is what the nation of Israel and the nation of Israel as a whole is not going to be blessed. It is the remnant that comes out from my perspective. It is the remnant that comes out of the fire. That is who God is going to bless and restore in the ethnic blessings. That's a classical dispensationalist view, not the, you know, left-behind view. So my point is, is that what you're seeing right now is you're seeing. A Davidic, a Neo-Davidic empire trying to be formed over there. They are, without a doubt, the most powerful country over there right now because they have our backing. They are the most powerful. There's the Abrahamic Accord that are being signed. There is this. Refitting of the Middle East now to where they can do anything that they want. And I tend to think. That it's possible that we've actually held them back from even dropping nukes on Iran. I think we've done that. So what will happen is I believe you're going to see a continual aggression of the Jewish nation politically, and you're going to see a continual aggression of the world against the Jews. When they were the little helpless guys getting beat up, everybody was kind of, we're kind of formed, but not anymore. They don't look like the helpless guys anymore. They look like bullies, quite frankly. And it's only going to get worse. And I believe that's part of God's plan to judge them, to bring them through the fires and refine them. And of course, we're involved in that. And where we fall is that's a whole nother episode for Prophecy is America. But yeah, the idea that we're going to walk around and all of a sudden just disappear and get raptured out. even though I do believe in the rapture, I do not believe that that excludes Christians from going through a severe time of testing. And I think we're moving in that way, but we're seeing it crescendo. We're seeing it crescendo more and more. And what you're seeing is the power shift over towards Israel in the Middle East, which is stunning. It's just stunning. Just 20 years ago, we would never be talking about this. We'd be talking about Israel hanging on Now we're actually talking about Israel being restrained from dropping nuclear weapons. We're talking about Saudi Arabia signing a deal with Israel, the Abraham Accords. It's, you know, it's definitely very interesting. And I think that the Jesuit power in America, which is, I think, the deep state, the Judaic power in Israel, those are the two kissing cousins right there. And that ultimately would lead into a longer discussion of the false prophet and the Antichrist. There it is right there. And I think eventually what you're. Going to see is at some point the Pope is and the prime minister, maybe the next reiteration of Israel, and there'd be a real unification, a public unification together. And that's when it's going to be Katie bar the door. At that point, I mean, the evangelicals, the New Apostolic Reformation, they're just useful idiots, honestly. They're being used. And everything that you said, this is where myself as a futurist amillennialist, I have a lot of agreement with what you just said here. Now, one more question, and then I'll let you go. But certainly with what we've been talking about, I got to bring this up. What do you make of so many of our world leaders being practitioners of the cabal, of cabalism? Because I'm seeing a lot of this going on. There's rumors that Kushner and his wife have converted to this. Even Donald Trump might have converted to this. But this is a very, very dangerous world religion situation. That is based on esoteric mysticism. Certainly, yes, they use the Talmud and things, but it is not Christianity. No, it's not. And actually, when you work your way up the pyramid, I think it's two sides to the same coin. Same mountain. I think when you work your way up to the pyramid, the modern iteration of Judaism and Jesuit, it's one and the same. I mean, when you look at what Christ said in Matthew 23, you could almost plug in priesthood in there. And the priests with their incense, very much connected to the Old Testament high priest There's something there at the higher end that you go up. Obviously, you talk about the synagogue of Satan. Those are Jewish people that Jesus is talking about. It was the deep state that had Christ crucified. The Roman state was in power politically, but it was the deep state that moved them to crucify. So you always see that tandem there. You see the high priest and the king. In the Old Testament. You see Balak. the Moabite king, and Balaam. You see that. And then ultimately that was united in the figure of Constantine, where you had him now taking on the role of being the priest or the father. And the emperor. And so I think. That across the board, whether you're looking at it from the Kabbalah or whether you're looking at it through a Jesuit lens or some of these others, I think it's all the same occult Satan worship. Jesus looked at those leaders of his day. And in no uncertain terms said, your father, you're of your father. The devil. Now that was a profound statement to make. And I don't think that it was hyperbole. I think he was making a statement. You are of your father, the devil. And if you go back, I know I'm rambling, but if you go back to Ezekiel, God told the prophet Ezekiel, dig into the inner temple. And if you read Ezekiel, he digs through the hole. And when he gets into the inner sanctum, they're worshiping satanic creatures in the temple. They have the sun god there in the temple on the north side of the temple. So it's always been that way. Satan has always tried to mimic and get as close as he can and torque the truth. And I think Jesuit torques the truth. I think the rabbinical modern iteration of Judaism torques the truth. And we won't get purity of the truth until Christ returns. in a true second advent for sure. And I think that's where all Christians agree. However, we get to that point, we do believe that Jesus Christ is coming back again in a physical return. And that's one of the foundational truths that we look towards. I got to tell you, I so appreciate you coming on the episode and sharing these truths. I think this is a phenomenal episode that I know is going to resonate with my audience and they're going to share it. Um, we have gone over, uh, significantly over and I apologize to you and I apologize to the audience, but like I said, there was just too much to unravel there to just, just cut it. So I thank you for your patience. Uh, any last words? I mean, we're going to share the soul trap.com. We want people to go there. Uh, Chris is bringing it up right now, please. Ladies and gentlemen, it's a phenomenal show with a phenomenal host. Uh, one of my favorites out there. So please go follow the soul trap, but pastor Joel, any parting words for the audience? Well, I just think just continuing to stay plugged into church and state, we need to get this information out. And the same thing about whether it's the Soul Trap, church and state, or whatever, it's not enough for us to keep circulating it to the choir. We've got to get it out to other people. There are people that are seeking truth. And so the more we share it, the more we get it out, the more potential we have of awakening people and And awakening people aren't always going to be necessarily on our side, but they're going to start asking the right questions. And if we get them to ask the right questions, I think we have the right answers. I love that. I'm wearing my They Live shirt right now, the Obey. Yes. Yeah. Some people don't want to get woken up. Some people, when they do get woken up, they're not very happy about it. But still, that pursuit of truth, I would say it's a mandate from us to pursue truth. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you again so much for joining us. I'm going to go ahead and close this out. If you hold on one more minute post-production to say our goodbyes, I'd appreciate it. But again, thank you for joining us on Church of State. All right, ladies and gentlemen, there you go. Pastor Joel Tillis, I tell you, this man is amazing. I love the friendship that we've developed. I love his wisdom and his pursuit of truth, as I just said. But I'm telling you, you gotta go watch The Soul Trap. It's one of the best shows out there. Church of State is brought to you in part by Colonial Life Spokane, Independent Agents, Finders Insurance, and mark37. com. I'm Caleb Collier. I was born for a storm. Welcome to the fire. Hey, this is Caleb Collier with Church and State, and I want to tell you about a great product, Liberty Cigars. I know for myself, there's nothing grander than sitting around a campfire, having a great theology discussion with a group of men. while smoking a cigar. That's why I love Liberty Cigars. Every cigar has a story to tell. Not only are you gonna be smoking the finest cigars on the market, but you're also going to get a history lesson with every single one of them. 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