Church & State - Epstein, Israel and becoming a Republican with Alan Dershowitz

Spokane Valley could become a sanctuary city of a different kind. Councilman Caleb Collier says that this proposal... I'm proposing that the city of Spokane Valley issue a proclamation stating that our city is a Second Amendment sanctuary. Welcome to the fire. Welcome to the fire. Today on the Caleb Collier Show, Why I Quit the Dems with Alan Dershowitz. Hello, Christian patrons, and welcome to the Caleb Collier Show of Church and State Media, where we drive morality and religion over tolerance and apathy. And I'm your host, Caleb Collier. Once again, your favorite far-right shock jock, and the show that talks about politics and religion. Jesus Christ is our referee, so it's always nice and clean. Real quick, let's go to the website, churchandstate.media, fill out the form, get our newsletter, and of course, a personal phone call from yours truly. Also, check out the most recent episodes as we continue to bring hard-hitting guests great conversations, please share them around. Also check out the featured guest page. We've had a number of the who's who over the years that we've been doing this. Click on the name. It'll bring you directly to the episode. Also do a little bit of shopping with us. Check out these great affiliates. These are great companies. They're Christians. They're patriotic. Use the promo code church and state with all of them. You'll get a discount and you'll help support us. And speaking of support, hit the donate button for us, please. Ladies and gentlemen, this is so important to be Continue to be a part of NRB TV and Prepper Broadcasting Network and OBBM and so many others, plus national syndication through AMFM Radio. That takes cash. And so if you like the show, please hit the donate button. Lastly, if you want to get a hold of us, churchandstate1776 at proton.me. With that, let's go ahead and bring on our guest. I'm thrilled to bring to you Alan Dershowitz. He's the author of Why I Quit the Dems and So Should You, Confessions of a Reluctant Republican. He's also an attorney, obviously a very, very well-known Democrat for a very long time, but has quit the party. And Mr. Dershowitz, thank you for joining us on Church and State. Well, thank you so much for having me. It sounds like an intriguing show and an intriguing concept. So let's get into it. Absolutely. I mean, right off the bat, let's just ask the question, you know, why I quit the Democrats. You've written this book describing your journey. And, you know, I've definitely seen some shows that you've been on talking about this subject. But in your own words, what was the catalyst to you leaving the Democrat Party? Well, it wasn't the fact that the Democrats nominated people like El-Said or They nominated this Nazi in Maine who ultimately had to withdraw, or Mondani. It was the fact that centrist leaders of the Democratic Party embraced them. The Democrats have had some, you know, very, very dangerous people. So, of the Republicans, the difference is the Republicans marginalized people like Tucker Carlson, whereas the Democrats have embraced them. people like El-Sayed and Mamdani. So I can't belong to a party that is so un-American, so anti-basically Judeo-Christian values as the Democratic Party has become. So I'm a reluctant Republican because I don't agree with everything on the Republican platform, but I agree with them more than I do with the Democrats. Okay. So going along those lines, what are some examples you could give of areas that you differ from the traditional Republican? I think that women under some circumstances at least should have the right to choose not to be pregnant or to terminate their pregnancy, although I also recognize that if a fetus is viable, it should not be terminated, killed. That's one area. The other area is separation of church and state. Generally, I like to see a wide separation. I don't want to see religion and churches and synagogues and mosques have too much of an influence on political considerations. So those are two areas. Gun control is another one. I'm in favor of the Second Amendment, but I think there are reasonable restrictions on guns that fire 100 rounds a second. And I think there are differences between guns in a in an urban center and guns in a rural area. So I have those differences. Gay rights. I'm a supporter generally of gay rights, though I'm not a supporter of gay rights organizations. Many of them are hard left and anti-Israel, anti-American. So it's complicated, but I have areas where I disagree with the Democrats, areas where I disagree with the Republicans, and even a few where I disagree with my wife. That's fair. Um, I've seen a number of interviews that you've given in regards to why you left the Democrat Party. And one of the things that keeps coming up is the Democrats' stance on the nation of Israel. And so I've heard your comments on this, but I'd love to get it from your own words, where you stand with this. Do you believe the Democrat Party has completely abandoned the nation of Israel? Are they just accepting anti-Semitism? Although that being said, you know, there's certainly those of us on the right, as they like to say, that also have questions about Israel. I have questions about Israel. I have questions about current policies in Israel. I have questions about what settlers are doing on the West Bank. But I recognize the right of the Jewish people, like every other people, to have a state of their own on land that has historically been Jewish since biblical times. So for me, it's not a question of supporting or opposing particular Israeli policies. It's like, the woman who is currently running for mayor of Boulder, Colorado, she won't even say she believes Israel has the right to exist. Look, New Zealand maybe shouldn't have the right to exist. It was a settler, colonist state, white Christians from England who had no connection to the land, just stole it, took it away from the Maoris and founded their own state. They are really settler colonialists. Israel, on the other hand, has always had a presence in what is now called Eretz Israel, the Land of Israel. named Palestine only by the Romans to de-Judaize it. So for me, being critical of Israel is different from denying its right to exist or denying a two-state solution. I'm in favor of a two-state solution. Today, most anti-Israel people are not in favor of a two-state solution because that requires them to recognize that one of those states should be Israel. Okay, I can definitely accept that. You know, one of the other things, and obviously you're a controversial figure. I like interviewing controversial figures. I'm controversial myself. But one of the things that keeps coming up in regards to your name specifically is the relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And a lot of people have questions about that, how far that relationship went. Sorry. I couldn't hear you, sir. I said, I'll answer every question. I'm not in any way ashamed, embarrassed, or apologetic about my relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. I can tell you all about it. I was introduced to him by Lady Rothschild, the wife of Lord Rothschild. She told me that he was a major contributor to Harvard and that she would like me to meet him. I met him. And then I became his lawyer. I represented him, helped make a deal. I never had any sexual contact with anybody. other than my wife, during the time that I knew Jeffrey Epstein, all the charges that were made against me were totally, totally false. And the woman who accused me ultimately acknowledged that she may have confused me with somebody else and may have misidentified me. So nothing to be embarrassed about. I'm happy to answer any questions. I've never refused to answer a question about Jeffrey Epstein. Nothing to hide. Okay. So one of the things that you've said in previous statements is that if the relationship or the fact that Jeffrey Epstein was more than likely an agent of either the Mossad or the CIA, that there could have been a deal that would be brokered if it would have gone directly to the president. Isn't that kind of making a mockery of our judicial system? Isn't that kind of elite exceptionalism at that point? All the time. When people work as agents for intelligence, they're not treated the way ordinary people are treated. They're usually given a pass, and their work in intelligence is rewarded. So the first question I asked Epstein when I was his lawyer is, is there anything you can tell me? Do you have any relationships with any intelligence agencies that I can use to help you get a better deal? And he said, absolutely not. He said, I wish I did. I wish I could have some Something that would help you get a better deal. Because he didn't like the deal I made. He fired me when I made the deal. He said I was the worst lawyer and he wouldn't pay me my fee. And I could have gotten him a better deal had he been a member of the Mossad or a member of the U.S. intelligence or British intelligence or any other intelligence. But he was not. He didn't have any connections to intelligence as far as I know. Okay. I mean, I've seen some declassified FBI informant who actually suggested otherwise that there was evidence that said that he was either an agent for Mossad or for the CIA, and that you had tried to broker a deal through that. But you're saying that that's not the case at all. The guy is Charlie Johnson. Might as well name him. He was my former research assistant when he was in high school. And he claims he overheard conversations between me and Epstein about the Mossad. It's just not true. None of it is true. And none of it was believed. I'm not sure whether Charlie Johnson is still in jail, but he was in jail. And nobody accepts his word as credible. I never try to broker a deal because there was no deal to broker. I can't broker a deal if I don't have the information. I would have been delighted to broker a deal. That's part of my job as a criminal defense lawyer. I would have been proud to do it. And I have broker deals with people to testify against the guilty people in order to get the benefit of lower sentences. But there was nothing to deal with Jeffrey Epstein and intelligence. So that That FBI informant, Charlie Johnson, was simply not accurately describing what happened. So do you believe, you know, a lot of the MAGA community, this is kind of a sticking point for a lot of people, that we were promised that the Epstein list was going to be released, that we were going to get justice for these young individuals who were tortured and raped. Do you think we're ever going to get to a point where that information is released to the public? First of all, nobody was tortured or raped. What we had was many, many, many young women, many of them 20, 21, 22, who kept coming back over and over again for their $ 200 to give Jeffrey Epstein an erotic massage. There were no rapes. There were no tortures. Nothing like that has ever been established or even testified to. So there's a lot of nonsense out there about Jeffrey Epstein. I would like to see everything released, but including the things released are the names of accusers. People who accuse other people of serious crimes ought to have their names released. So I want everything released. I want the name of anybody accused, the name of anybody who makes the accusation, as long as they're adults. If they're children, no, their name shouldn't be released. But if they're adults, their name should be released. So I'm in favor of releasing every single item. I waive all of my rights of privacy, all of my rights of confidentiality, because I have nothing to hide. So why do you, in your opinion here, why do you believe that this has been suppressed, that the CIA seems to like to use a black highlighter whenever they release information on Jeffrey Epstein and this list of names of individuals that frequented the Lolita Express and went over to the island? Because the Congress passed a law saying that the names of victims couldn't be produced. So the Justice Department had to redact those names, and they shouldn't have. If an adult woman or man accuses somebody of sexual misconduct, their name should be released, including the name of the woman in Cornell University who claims that she was raped by seven people. She's an adult. She was over 18. And if she's making an accusation, her name should be released so that people can see how she made previous false statements. Is she credible? Maybe she is. But the idea of anonymous accusations is an asthma to American democracy and civil liberties. So I'm opposed to it in all cases. So you said, when I mentioned that there was torture and rape going on here, you immediately corrected that. Some of the papers that I've seen do point to some rather egregious behavior on Epstein's Island or on the ranch in New Mexico, but you're very adamant that none of this ever occurred. Well, I haven't seen any credible information about rapes or torture. What I've seen is There's lots of information about women getting paid $ 200, $ 400, $ 300 to give Jeffrey Epstein an erotic massage. I've seen a lot of that. And some of them ended up being underage. I've seen some of that. I've never seen any allegations of torture or rape that are credible. But if they're there, they should be investigated. They should be examined. the names of everybody should be released and justice should be brought for all people, but justice should be brought on both sides. You may have seen yesterday day before in the New York Times, a big story about a Nobel-quality scientist whose career was destroyed by a woman who claimed she had been sexually abused by him, and then he sued her, and the jury gave him, I think, $ 6 or $ 7 million because her story was false. In my case, too, a woman claimed that I had had voluntary sex with her and then acknowledged that she may have been confuse me with somebody else. I've never had sex with anybody but my wife since the day I met Jeffrey Epstein. I don't even hug people or touch people. The stories are totally false, and in many instances, admittedly false or admitted that they were confusions or false identifications. I want to get to the bottom of everything. I want the truth to come out. I'm not afraid of the truth. I think the real issue here for the public that's paying attention to this subject is that we feel betrayed. Donald Trump promised us that all the files would be released. And a lot of us have these questions. And there's been information that has been leaked, that has been put out there that show that Jeffrey Epstein, or at least there's some evidence to suggest that Jeffrey Epstein was an agent either for the U.S. or for the Israeli government. that he was running a honeypot scheme where individuals, high-level individuals in banking, in politics, in Hollywood, were brought to this island so that they could be surveilled, so that they could have dirt on them, so that they could be controlled. And then there's the other stuff that's out there that we've talked about, the torture, the rapes, potentially even cannibalism has been thrown out there. I think people really want to dig down to the bottom of this. I do, too. I want to get to the bottom of it because I think 90% of it will prove to be fictional. And the 10% that's true, people should be held to account. There was an investigation about whether there were cameras. I was actually one who said, I hope there were cameras in every bedroom because that would obviously prove my own innocence if there were cameras in the bedrooms. And it turned out there weren't. The only camera was one in his living room. That was installed by the Palm Beach police because one of his housekeepers had stolen a gun and stolen some money from him. So that was the only camera that was ever found. So I don't see that there was any legitimate evidence of a honeypot scheme. And if there was, he would have told me about it, and I would have helped him get a much better deal. He wouldn't have spent a day in jail if there was evidence that he worked either for the CIA— or for British intelligence, or for the Mossad, but there was no such evidence. I want to return back to that, because that's deeply disturbing, I've got to be honest, for myself, and I'm going to assume for my audience as well, that there is a get-out-of-jail-free card for individuals that work with intelligence agencies. They kind of have a free pass, can do whatever they want, so long as they're doing it in service of God and country. Well, there's no doubt in my mind that if you work for a government, you work for government intelligence, that will be taken into consideration whether you'd be prosecuted or not. I've seen that over the years, way before the Epstein case and since the Epstein case. That doesn't mean they can do anything they want, but they can do a lot of things if they're working for intelligence. And if they provide useful intelligence information, life is a trade-off. And obtaining information necessary to save the lives of people who would otherwise be subject to terrorist attacks is worth something. And so, I mean, you know, even Sheikh Mohammed, the guy who pulled off 9-11, you know, is going to get a better deal because he also provided information and others provided information who committed terrible crimes. But information providers, that's part of our system, are rewarded by the system. I don't like it. But as a criminal defense lawyer, I have to take advantage of it if it affects my own client. Okay. I mean, I don't like that whatsoever, but I can definitely understand the approach there. Jeffrey Epstein, even with his death, there's a lot of questions. A lot of people are really, really confused, concerned. Did he kill himself? Is he still alive? What are your thoughts on this? He's not alive, but I don't know whether he killed himself or whether he was killed. I can tell you this. If he killed himself, he didn't do it alone. He certainly had the help of prison guards or people who were in charge of him. He didn't do it just by himself without anything, any cooperation. We know that the TV cameras were turned off, that people weren't where they were supposed to be. But I don't know whether he killed himself or not. He was a hedonist. The idea of him spending the rest of his life in a rat-infested prison is not something that he would find acceptable. He was not a religious person, so he didn't care about hell or heaven or anything like that. It wouldn't surprise me if he made a decision to terminate his own life, and it wouldn't surprise me if we would have learned that, no, somebody killed him to protect themselves against information being disclosed. I just don't know the answer to that question. I mean, I understand that you don't understand or don't know the answer to that question specifically. But if he was killed to silence him, doesn't that mean that he had information that could have brought down some powerful people? I mean, I mean. to be able to kill somebody in prison, you're going to have to pull some shenanigans to be able to get into that prison, pay off the guards, get them on board for all of that. So wouldn't that imply that he had some dirt on some very high level people? If he, in fact, was killed, it certainly would imply that. I know that prison well. I've been there many times. I've visited many inmates in that prison. It's a very, very high security, maximum place, downtown New York, and be very, very difficult for criminals, mafia people or terrorists to get inside to kill him. you would probably need some support from inside, from the government. So I understand why people still don't think they know the answers to all the questions. Even his own brother is not sure of what happened and thinks there may have been outside sources that killed him. I know Jeffrey well enough to have known that he was not generally suicidal, but he probably saw that his chances of ever getting out of prison were pretty slim, and he just didn't want to go through the rest of his life as a prisoner. So I could see both sides of that, and I just don't know the answer to it. I didn't know him at all for the last 10 years of his life. My relationship with him terminated angrily. He was furious at me. He told Woody Allen I was the world's worst lawyer, and he wouldn't pay me fees that he owed me. So I had no contact with him, so I wouldn't know anything about his last years. So thoughts on Maxwell. There's a lot of conversations that are occurring right now that she's going to be pardoned, potentially even by Trump, pardoned and brought out and able to live as a free woman. What are your thoughts on this? So I hope so. She was not deeply involved in any of this. She was his girlfriend, and then she became his kind of secretary and assistant. I think had he not been killed or died or committed suicide, had he still been alive and been prosecuted, she probably would have testified against him and not gone to jail at all. And so in some respects, she's serving his sentence. And so I think it's too much. And I would be in favor of her being having her sentence commuted to time served. That would still be a long time for her in prison. Okay. Well, I appreciate you answering these difficult questions. Honestly, I appreciate you being candid with the audience. We only have about five minutes left before you got to leave. So I do want to make sure that I'm a good host and I give you the opportunity to go back to your book, Why I Quit the Dems. And I know you want to promote this. So please tell the audience why they should be reading this book. First of all, you can't buy it in local bookstores. These independent bookstores that came to be the backbone of the First Amendment, they don't sell books like mine. they sell left-wing books. They sell radical books, but they don't sell books by a best-selling author. I was the number one New York Times best-selling author for my book Chutzpah, and this book has sold well. But they won't sell it, so you can't buy it in your local bookstore. You can only buy it on Amazon or in Barnes & Noble or online. You should go to your local bookstore and say, why aren't you selling Dershowitz's book? I thought you believe in free speech, First Amendment, marketplace of ideas. Why are you not selling books by people who are now deemed to be conservative? And then if you read the book, you'll see why I made this dramatic transition from being a Democrat for 70 years, 70 years, even more. I was 14 or 15 when I started going through the streets of Brooklyn campaigning for Democratic candidates. And I'm now 88 years old. And I've switched parties, and I'm not too old to switch. And I could switch back someday if the Democrats were to return to becoming the party of my youth and my parents and my grandparents, but I don't see that happening. So I think I'm going to stick to being an anti-Democrat and a reluctant Republican. The title is very, very interesting. Reluctant Republican. And, you know, I made the comment as a libertarian, I am sometimes a reluctant Republican myself because sometimes I do vote with the R's, even though I have a lot of disagreements with the party. But, you know, when I examine the Democrat Party, sir, I see quite a boondoggle, to be quite frank. I mean, they moved so far from the JFK Democrat, from the Blue Dog Democrat, To a party that's just, I mean, fully embraced insanity in my mind. I agree with you, and that's why I've left it. And it's not only the periphery of the party. It's, you know, they have a big tent, big enough to embrace Al-Said and AOC, but not big enough to embrace John Fetterman or even Josh Gottheimer. people who are centrists. So I can't belong to that party. It is the party of extremists now, and the party of extremists not only at the extremes but at the center, because people like Chuck Schumer are supporting these extremists and making them welcome into a party that doesn't welcome centrists like me or like John Fetterman or others like that. So I'm going to remain outside of the Democratic Party. I'm a libertarian also, my most influential professor in college. was John Hospers, who became head of the Libertarian Party and actually ran for president as a libertarian. And he had an enormous influence on me intellectually. And I think of myself as a libertarian, a civil libertarian, but a libertarian. And I'm in favor of freedom and less government control. And I think that the Democrats are worse at that than the Republicans. So I'm going to stick with the Republican Party, reluctantly hope to make sure they don't move too far to an extreme position. And I'm going to reject the Democrats and do everything in my power to see them defeated at the polls. So we're speaking of the polls, you know, and perhaps this is the last question, because I know you've got to leave here in a minute. Um, Where do you see— I mean, everybody's talking about it. 2026, we got the midterms right around the corner. Do you have any predictions for the direction of the country? Yeah, I think the House will go Democrat, and I think the Senate is impossible to predict. I hope that they stay Republican. It's very important that one of the houses maintain Republican. It's close. Nobody can predict how it's going to come out, and nobody can predict the presidential elections. We don't even know who the nominees will be at this point. Remember— If you go back at this point, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago, nobody knew who Bill Clinton was. Nobody knew who Jimmy Carter was. So often you get situations where people emerge as the presidential candidate who are unknown to the public even two years before they became the nominee. So I don't think we can know who the Democrats will nominate. I think the Republicans. It's likely to be Vance. If not Vance, it's likely to be Rubio. My preference is for Rubio, but we'll see what happens. Sure. Yeah. So I appreciate you coming on. I know you've got to leave here. But one more time, real quick, let's promote the book, Why I Quit the Dems. And Chris is bringing that up. You can see Mr. Dershowitz is holding the book right there. But it's available on Amazon, Why I Quit the Dems, and so should you. Sir, any last words for the audience on why they should get the book or anything else for that matter? The last words in the back of the book, and it's a very strong endorsement by President Donald Trump. The highly respected Alan Dershowitz has written a powerful book. This book's for you, et cetera, et cetera. So your president wants you to read this book, too. So I hope you will. And I hope you'll get it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble because you're not going to be able to find it in your local bookstore. All right. Well, I once again, thank you for joining us on Church and State. And I know you got to run, but thank you for answering some hard questions and for coming on the show. Always happy to do it. And thanks for having such a good show. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. All right. There we are, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Alan Dershowitz, he's on the show. He's talking about a lot of different subjects there. He's talking about, you know, I asked him some hard questions about Epstein, about why he moved away from the Democrats. And, you know, we're going to come back. We're going to do another 15 minutes. Hey, this is Caleb Collier with Church and State. I'm here to tell you about Hunter's Blend Coffee. I got to tell you, I absolutely love this stuff. I'm all about the dark roast. Hunter's Blend Coffee, black powder. Doesn't that just sound like deliciousness and rebellion? I got to tell you, in America, we don't drink tea. No, we drink coffee. It's the food of the gods, and I endorse and support Hunter's Blend Coffee. I got to tell you, it tastes like freedom. So I need you to go over to churchandstate.media, scroll to Hunter's Blend Coffee, and use the promo code churchandstate to help support us. When you go to huntersblendcoffee.com, not only will you be getting a great cup of coffee, but you also, if you use the promo code CHURCHANDSTATE, be supporting Church and State in our dogged pursuit of truth. And we are back, and thank you for staying with us. You're over at churchandstate.media, and we're going to go right into my conversation, just me. Sometimes it's the favorite part of the whole show. Everybody loves that, Chris. But real quick, let's plug our affiliates in. I haven't done enough due diligence. In fact, Chris, we got to cut some commercials for the three new ones. So let's talk about the three new ones since you're not seeing those commercials all that often. First, Patriot Mobile. It's right there. Chris can bring it up. Patriot Mobile. is a company that Does not sell your data now. Look, you know, i'm big on privacy, you know, I talk about the ghost phones and in fact you can buy Uh ghost phones you can buy mark 3 7 products at patriot mobile excuse me, but um selling your data is going to be key. Look, AT & T, Verizon, T-Mobile, they sell all of your data. Okay. Get into a company that does not do that to you, that respects your privacy and is owned by Christians and Patriots. Go check out Patriot Mobile, use that promo code church and state. And then the other ones we have as well, we have Caravan to Midnight. I got to tell you, one of the highlights of my life, like when I'm old and shuffling around in my bathrobe and slippers and I'm going to be able to say I was a guest on Caravan to Midnight. Chris, that was pretty cool. Come on. That was cool. That was great. It's so great to be a part of that. And now you can buy all their products through church and state as well. And so go check out Caravan to Midnight right there. You can see it. This one. Is this also the promo code church and state? That one is actually code Caleb Collier. Thank you. I knew there was one outlier in there and it's kind of weird. I guess with the transition of the show. But go check out Caravan to Midnight. Check out all their great products. And in this one, use the promo code CHURCHANDSTATE. And then, of course, Gun Owners of America. You know I love my firearms. I mean, I got one behind me every single show. But this is the no-compromise gun lobbyists. They are in there in the halls of decay. And just disgusting bills are in there in D.C. fighting for your God-given right to own things that can protect you. You know, if we were living in the medieval ages, it'd be swords. OK, we'd be protecting our right to own a sword. We live in a modern era where we have firearms and GOA is fighting for your God-given rights here. Once again, become a member and use that promo code church and state for a discount and to help support the show. And one more time, hit the donate button for us, guys. Please. Obviously, we continue to bring in very interesting guests. And I'm going to be talking about what we just heard from our last guest. But we need help. We need support to continue to bring in these people and have these types of conversations. So please hit that donate button for us. All right. With that, let's go into it. Chris, I'm going to make you a part of this conversation because I'm going to be flat out honest with the audience. I have not been a fan of Mr. Alan Dershowitz. Chris, where are you at with him? I barely know the guy. Barely know the guy. I have watched the things that he has said, and I wrote up a number of questions, and you heard a lot of those. I wasn't going to just allow the conversation to be one of why you left the Democrat Party, because I want to get to the bottom of this. You know, justice for the people that I believe were abused by Jeffrey Epstein, that we've got to get to the bottom of this. And Mr. Alan Dershowitz's name, it keeps coming up. It keeps coming up in the Epstein files that there's a tie here. You know, that there's a tie with Mossad. And, you know, Alan has been a lawyer for, He's acted, he's publicly admitted this, that he's acted as a lawyer for the Mossad and continues a close relationship with them. I didn't even get a chance to ask him about that question. But why would we have an individual who has quite a large following? Why would we allow somebody to work for the Mossad and then influence us? I don't like that. And I don't like his response to giving intelligence assets a pass. Chris, did that sit well with you? Well, no. But I mean, clearly that's... It's the way of the world, right? That's the way it's been going through history. And that truly disgusts me. I got to be honest with you, ladies and gentlemen. The fact that governments, not just our government, governments around the world. Well, let's go specifically to America because our government is supposed to represent we the people, us. And I personally believe, and I don't know, maybe I'm an outlier on this one, but I personally believe that I would draw a line. I would draw a line on this. You got a honeypot situation with a guy. I don't care what our guest said. All the evidence that I have seen shows that that Jeffrey Epstein was working as an intelligence asset for either the CIA, the Mossad, or both, or British intelligence as well. We'll throw that into the mixture with Maxwell, with those ties. I would rather err on the side of maybe we get hit. And that may sound ugly, guys. It might sound very, very ugly. I would rather err on the side of that. that my hands would be clean, that I wouldn't expect people that go and work for our government, most of them join the government services with the best of intentions, and they get completely corrupted. Imagine getting that order. We're going to protect a guy who's running a honeypot organization on a private island with underage girls, not entirely sure what's going on over there, but we're protecting this guy because he's an asset and he's feeding us intel. Would you balk at that? Chris, do you find that to be a legal order? Would you balk at that if you were employed by the government? Yeah. Right? Don't you have enough morality about you to say, no, I'm not going to turn a blind eye. If this guy, if I hear screams coming from this resort place, I'm going to go investigate it. And if I find somebody doing horrible, unspeakable things to kids, I'm probably going to kill them flat out. Don't they screen for morality in the hiring process? Yeah, you'd think. Maybe back in the day. Well, no, I think they do. I think if you're too moral, you're out. Yeah, well, there you go. Exactly. It's like, who was it? Was it Kash Patel? That was talking about how they needed to... remove if anybody had had a relations with an animal that they needed to be, they needed to remove that from the questions that they gave, uh, on the lie detector test. Is that not just the weird, I mean, is that really an issue? There's that many people that are relating with animals. And the reason the logic supposedly behind that issue was that some people had been abused and forced into these relations with these animals and, But other than that, they were great candidates for the job. You're blowing my mind here, Caleb. Good. I want people's minds blown. I want people asking these types of questions. And once again, what you just said, Chris, how many of these people actually exist? Like, this is actually an issue? Whether they were forced into it or whether they willingly took advantage of an animal, that's the candidates' For our alphabet agencies within our government? No. I know hundreds and hundreds of people. I've never met a single person that has ever shared with me having relations with animals. These are not the caliber or candidates that we want inside here. But I'll tell you what, and I'll tell you why. Compromised. That's what it comes down to. They want compromised. It's not good enough for them to have compromised individuals at the highest levels. They want it at the enforcer levels as well. They want every single one of them to be completely compromised because they want them to be controlled. And they never want them to disobey an order. That's what it comes down to, Chris. Yeah. I'm also, you know, it's October and the thought comes to me when you talk about abusing animals. What if these are like witchcraft type of situations? 100%. I mean, so many, you know, the Santeria and voodoo and all that. Yeah, they're engaging in that. The witchcraft, you look at the writings of Aleister Crowley, the Church of Satan, all this stuff. It all has a ritualistic animal abuse and ritualistic people abuse as well. It's all part of that dark magic. And these individuals, I truly believe at the highest levels of every government in our world has tied in. They're tapping in to the dark magic practices because what do they get? What does Satan promise them? They're being used by the devil, just like you and I who struggle with our daily sins. But these people sold out. They sold out a hundred percent. What do they get? They get a little bit of power. They get a little power. It's like these, these, celebrities, right? And people are noticing. And I'm going off on a tangent here, but I don't mind. These celebrities, why do they look so good for so long and then all of a sudden just fall off the cliff? Have you noticed this, Chris? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, apparently there's a lot of bad plastic surgery going on. It's more than just that. It's more than just that. These people sell out, sell completely out to the devil himself so that they can enjoy a number of years of eternal youth looking great. These actors look great. And then all of a sudden, it's not necessarily that the adrenochrome dries up at Epstein Island. All of a sudden, we don't have access to it. Look in. They've done studies. They've looked into tribes, right? Backwater, third world tribes that engage in cannibalism. And look at what happens to individuals who eat human flesh, eat human brains, literally zombies. What happens to them as they progress throughout life? They develop the same exact symptoms that you're seeing in your favorite local celebrity, in your favorite local politician. And I firmly believe that that is everything that was going on with Epstein Island and more. And returning back to our guest that we just had on, Alan Dershowitz. Look, I appreciate him coming on the show. I appreciate that he didn't just cancel the interview as soon as I started asking him some hard questions. I do appreciate that. But I'll tell you this right now. I don't believe what he said. I don't believe anything that he said. I don't believe that he didn't know Epstein very well. You know, by his own words. What, Chris? What? Am I getting in trouble here? Well, I mean, maybe he didn't know. You know, he brought up Woody Allen. He told Woody Allen. Right. That he was the worst lawyer ever. Woody Allen, a pedophile. Woody Allen is on record. Everybody knows it. The guy... took advantage of his own stepdaughter. Disgusting. Yeah, I wouldn't take his word on it, but that doesn't mean he was telling Dershowitz all the dirty details. Okay, that may be fair, Chris. I'll give you that one. It may be fair. But I think a lot of people have a lot of questions about Alan Dershowitz's relationship with Epstein. I think a lot of people going back on public record and some of the things that Alan Dershowitz has said about his involvement, about Israel, about the Mossad. I think we hold them to his word. I think that's the type of question. And I threw those in there. Like, by your own words, you said this. Okay? You know, the whistleblower said this about you. He named the whistleblower by name on that one. Props to him on that one. But we all have questions about it. And I think overall, overall, as we're putting the bookends on this show, I'm never going to be okay until we see everything released. And I find it, when I made the comment about the black highlighters, the CIA using black highlighters, gosh, if they only knew they were using black highlighters, Chris, they were just like, oh my gosh, what happened to the yellow ones? We were using black the whole time. Our mistake, right? Those aren't just victims' names. When you go and look at the Epstein files that have been released, and there's whole pages that are nothing but black Those aren't just victims' names. Do you believe that at all, Chris? That would be a lot of victims. That's a lot of names. No. That falls flat. That falls absolutely flat. There's no way that those are just names that are being removed. And there is something to be said for what he said about if somebody is falsely accusing. I agree with that. But a lot of these kids were underage. They were kids, guys. We protect those innocent individuals and we get to the bottom of the Epstein files and I don't care who's on it. I don't care if they need to be protected. I don't care if they're intelligent asset. I don't care if they're the president of the United States of America. I want justice. I want the truth released and I want these individuals to pay for the crimes that they committed on the most innocent. Caleb Collier's show of Church and State Media is brought to you in part by Colonial Life Spokane Independent Agents, Finders Insurance, and mark37. com. I'm Caleb Collier. I was born for a storm. Welcome to the fire. This is Caleb Collier with Church and State. Are you tired of your device spying on you? Ladies and gentlemen, we live in 1984. Your phones, your tablets, your smart televisions, they all are spying on you. And this is why I heavily endorse mark37. com. This is everything you need for your digital privacy. Phones, tablets, laptops, all of them are ghost protocoled. So that means that you are in charge of your own data. 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